1 Topic by lamefun (edited by lamefun 2012-08-05 22:57:10)

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Topic: Extra major complaint

R E L U C T A N C E    O F    P L A Y E R S    T O    T R Y    N E W    T H I N G S

This is THE source of all the problems of Teeworlds. That is why Teeworlds is currently stagnating.

This is why noobs get trapped in "noob" gametypes. They just don't want to reach out, because if they join any gametype with steeper learning curve they'll regularly get killed in one second until they gain skill.

Pros are prone to this too. They don't play any maps except for ctf1, ctf2, ctf3 and (rarely)ctf5 because of their reluctance to learn new movement patterns. This is understandable, since if they try new maps, they'll most likely move like slugs until they get familiar with them. This is most seen on ctf4 and ctf6, since movement on them is nothing like movement on most maps.

Don't belive me? Have you ever seen serious clans that play ctf6 and ctf4? Have you seen any active standard or instagib server that runs a custom map?

Here are some solutions I came up with:

[MAPS, GAMETYPES] Make Teeworlds proprietary, legally prohibit modding and enforce map rotation

It'll kill Teeworlds. No Teeworlds, no problems.

[MAPS] Make a new set of official maps

I don't know how effective will it be. Most likely it will only help temporarily. In the best case, players will sooner or later select a few maps from those new official maps as the new "king" maps and the rest of the maps will be neglected. In the worst case, players will just continue to play the old maps.

[MAPS] Make a new set of official maps every release

This could work, since noobs who didn't disable standard maps will play new maps. Players that have already developed a preference to play some fixed set of maps will get an incentive to play new maps because they are official. Active servers will emerge, noobs will gain skill. Of course each generation of players will have their own preferred maps, but these generations will sometimes play together. Players will understand that trying new maps is fun.

[GAMETYPES] Ban noob trap gametypes

"Noob trap gametype" is highly subjective, so all mods will be in danger. Who wants to mod if your mod can be banned?

[GAMETYPES] Leave it as it is

We can't really force anyone to play any particular gametype.

----------------------------------------------------

B A D   M O D D I N G    S U P P O R T

Teeworlds engine doesn't allow modding beyond limits set by protocol. Nodes - died, StarWars - never released, WaterMod - laggy, Aviator - laggy. It's impossible to augment the protocol, add new entities for example or new tuning parameters. Last time I tried to do my Aviator I made a custom client with correct prediction for jetpack but then I realized that no one will download it. C++ programs have full access to computer, so people worry about viruses in custom clients. Custom clients also need to be compiled for different platforms (since most people don't know how to compile C++ code). And they take much effort and a long time to download (one needs to close Teeworlds, go to mod web page, click download, accept, save, unpack, ...). It's very hard to get users to download custom clients. That's why Nodes, the mod that could be very popular and potentially soften the damage done by DDRace, died.

Don't underestimate modding. Client mods that are easily and safely downloadable could be our nursery for new experimental powerups, gametypes and weapons. Nursery that every single Teeworlds player can visit (not just the ones who know how to compile C++ code). This can really save Teeworld from stagnation.

Here are all the possibilities for better modding support I could come up with:

JavaScript

I don't propose to make Teeworlds a browser game (but we could optionally add HTML5 engine backend). I want to create an engine that loads and executes mods (something like a little Teeworlds-only browser without HTML and CSS cruft and only features Teeworlds needs).

+ Garbage collected, dynamic language
+ Prescribed for people by the Global Government
+ Very popular (Web, Windows 8 Metro, KDE 5, GNOME 3, Node.js, ...)
+ Fast due to JIT
+ Supported by Google®, Microsoft® and Apple®
+ Safe untrusted code execution (since execution of untrusted code is precisely what JavaScript is made for)
+ Stable, new versions are generally backwards-compatible (since making new versions incompatible would ruin many large Web Apps)
+ We could implement engine interfaces in HTML5, effectively making Teeworlds run in Web browsers. That'll bring us many more new players.
- Considerably slower than C++
- Some bad language design decisions
- Need major porting effort

LuaJIT

Same as in JavaScript, but with Lua instead.

+ Garbage collected, dynamic language
+ Fast due to JIT
+ Exceptionally good language design
+/- Safe untrusted code execution requires some manual work
- Considerably slower than C++
- Unstable, new versions are usually backwards-incompatible (since it's usually used in proprietary games that, once released, are never updated and scripts are usually small and easy to update and they don't have to worry about breaking large applications with new versions (like the whole Teeworlds game login I plan to port onto it))
- JIT interpreter is a one-man project, so it can just stop being developed, since it's not much needed by companies anyway. Speed of the standard Lua interpreter is usually enough for small game scripts, but won't be enough for the whole Teeworlds game logic.
- Not as popular as JavaScript
- Need major porting effort

C++ sandbox

Operating systems actually CAN place restrictions on native code (how do you think they limit non-administrator users from removing C:/WINDOWS/system32). We could use OS abilities to restrict downloaded C++ mods from doing harm to the player's systems. As C++ is not an interpreted language, we will need to ship a C++ compiler to compile mods in-place though.

+ No performance loss in the official client/server, since we could just link game code and engine code into one executable, like we do it now
+ Downloaded mods will probably be slower than official client but still faster than dynamic languages
- C++ is a static language with manual memory management. The fact that Teeworlds doesn't use STL makes the code even harder to understand for most people.
- Need to ship a C++ compiler with Teeworlds
- Proper native code sandboxing support is available in Linux only since kernel 3.5 (even Fedora doesn't ship it yet)
- Need to investigate native code sandboxing support in Windows and Mac OS X

2 Reply by ghost

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Re: Extra major complaint

I think you want too much. Some of your ideas are ok, but it would be kinda hard to realize them. I would just leave things like they are, it's not so bad actually. You say fw is not nice for nodding, well you are right, but I Don't think this is that bad. we are developing "vanilla teeworlds" and not teeworlds, w"world of the mods"...

http://www.johannesloher.com/

3 Reply by Dune

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Re: Extra major complaint

That's not necessarily an issue if Teeworlds doesn't allow the server to get the standard client to do everything he wants.
Teeworlds vanilla isn't a modding platform "hurr here are 5 basic weapons, flags, hud and coherent physics have fun durr"

Not Luck, Just Magic.

4 Reply by DARK HUNTER

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Re: Extra major complaint

We're trying to make teeworlds better by making new maps,improving gametypes;new features.... But all that doesn't help the case. Are we looking at the wrong place???

Once in a century...

5 Reply by Slayer *gV*

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Re: Extra major complaint

Yes you are.
Teeworlds doesnt need new unteeish gametypes, new unteeish features, new unteeish maps.
Teeworlds got "famous" with dm and the map dm1.
And it did coz it was advertised, e.g. GIGA.

Teeworlds needs more advertising to attract people, new players don't care about 500 different shitty maps and 5 millions useless mods :\

[MOD] Domination   ||   [MOD] iVampire   ||   [MOD] Streamer
[MAP] Slayer's maps (fly)

6 Reply by Zodiac (edited by Zodiac 2012-08-04 13:11:42)

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Re: Extra major complaint

ghost wrote:

I think you want too much. Some of your ideas are ok, but it would be kinda hard to realize them. I would just leave things like they are, it's not so bad actually. You say fw is not nice for nodding, well you are right, but I Don't think this is that bad. we are developing "vanilla teeworlds" and not teeworlds, w"world of the mods"...

The way I see it, teeworlds Mods is like Warcraft 3's custom games; it is what is keeping this game alive as everyone likes to have choices. I am not saying that they should go through all this trouble that was listed above, but they certainly shouldn't just disregard the value that modding brings to Teeworlds.

Come to think of it, (donno if this is in line with what lamefun has been saying), but teeworlds could add a similar functionality that Counter Strike has. Where you are able to load up mods in the client. I would even go as far as teeworld's creating a list of official support mods where you able to not just load up already installed mods, but to browse the official support mod list and download them from the client.

I know all this is a lot of work for any of these mod related solutions, but it is certainty a discussion worth having, and I would suggest that the developers in charge maybe allow someone outside the team to develop a solution that is agreed upon and then they add it to the default client (if it is up to their standards).

In regards to lamefun's other ideas to force players to try new things... I think they are pretty retarded, and a quick way to turn the players against teeworlds (except for the new maps ideas, but that requires extra work).

Slayer *gV* wrote:

Yes you are.
Teeworlds doesnt need new unteeish gametypes, new unteeish features, new unteeish maps.
Teeworlds got "famous" with dm and the map dm1.
And it did coz it was advertised, e.g. GIGA.

Teeworlds needs more advertising to attract people, new players don't care about 500 different shitty maps and 5 millions useless mods :\

I agree, but that is the great thing about freedom of choice. People quickly realize which of the 5 million (a bit of an exaggeration) mods are useless and which ones are actually great fun. Like DDrace for example, it is by far the most popular gametype in teeworlds, and even though the people on my servers do enjoy dm and the vanilla gametypes they spend far more of their time on the mods as it offers more variety.

It seems to me that Teeworlds is trying to crash mods rather than embrace it. Games thrive off of mods and peoples creativity in making them. Just look at Arma 2, Warcraft 3, and Half Life....

oMod
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7 Reply by Dune

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Re: Extra major complaint

AvidTeeworlder wrote:

The way I see it, teeworlds Mods is like Warcraft 3's custom games; it is what is keeping this game alive as everyone likes to have choices. I am not saying that they should go through all this trouble that was listed above, but they certainly shouldn't just disregard the value that modding brings to Teeworlds.

That's the way you see it, and I disagree with that. It may be true for War3, but it's not because there are 800 players playing mods and 200 on vanilla that if mods wouldn't exist there would be 200 people on vanilla. Fact is, newbies first play vanilla and then get caught by the "casu mods".
That's just another opinion, some people also think like you, obviously, but don't consider that as a fact.

Come to think of it, (donno if this is in line with what lamefun has been saying), but teeworlds could add a similar functionality that Counter Strike has. Where you are able to load up mods in the client. I would even go as far as teeworld's creating a list of official support mods where you able to download them and load them up from your client.

The question being, like slayer said, do we really want to help mods at the extend they would lose any link with the actual game? The game is not trying to "crush mods", it's not like they locked the code to prevent good mods.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

8 Reply by Zodiac (edited by Zodiac 2012-08-04 13:35:29)

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Re: Extra major complaint

Dune wrote:
AvidTeeworlder wrote:

The way I see it, teeworlds Mods is like Warcraft 3's custom games; it is what is keeping this game alive as everyone likes to have choices. I am not saying that they should go through all this trouble that was listed above, but they certainly shouldn't just disregard the value that modding brings to Teeworlds.

That's the way you see it, and I disagree with that. It may be true for War3, but it's not because there are 800 players playing mods and 200 on vanilla that if mods wouldn't exist there would be 200 people on vanilla. Fact is, newbies first play vanilla and then get caught by the "casu mods".
That's just another opinion, some people also think like you, obviously, but don't consider that as a fact.

Firstly, I disagree with that. That vanilla is for the hardcore pros and mods attract the noobs. To me each mod requires a different set of skills. Even if there are casual mods that noobs enjoy playing over the vanilla, that should be seen as a good thing, because if they enjoy an easier and more relaxed game then so be it. I know people who started off getting to know the game playing one of these easier mods as the controls can be quite challenging at first, but then they move on to something else once they got used to the game.

You underestimate the value of modding, even though I enjoy vanilla, if it wasn't for mods I wouldn't still be playing this game for aslong as I have been (2 years), and I am certain I am not alone in this. It could even be argued that modding brings more people to vanilla as it increases the overall popularity of Teeworlds and helps to retain the players by keeping them entertained through variety.

Dune wrote:

Come to think of it, (donno if this is in line with what lamefun has been saying), but teeworlds could add a similar functionality that Counter Strike has. Where you are able to load up mods in the client. I would even go as far as teeworld's creating a list of official support mods where you able to download them and load them up from your client.

The question being, like slayer said, do we really want to help mods at the extend they would lose any link with the actual game? The game is not trying to "crush mods", it's not like they locked the code to prevent good mods.

Okay teeworlds isn't actively trying to prevent modding, but they clearly have an attitude (like yours) that is against it, rather one that should be welcoming the support that it give as modding can only be beneficial for the game.

oMod
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9 Reply by Dune

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Re: Extra major complaint

The argument mods bring more people to vanilla is looking so wrong, but there are really few facts/statistics to base an argument upon, so I'll just stay with my opinion.


AvidTeeworlder wrote:

Come to think of it, (donno if this is in line with what lamefun has been saying), but teeworlds could add a similar functionality that Counter Strike has. Where you are able to load up mods in the client. I would even go as far as teeworld's creating a list of official support mods where you able to download them and load them up from your client.

The question being, like slayer said, do we really want to help mods at the extend they would lose any link with the actual game? The game is not trying to "crush mods", it's not like they locked the code to prevent good mods.

Okay teeworlds isn't actively trying to prevent modding, but they clearly have an attitude (like yours) that is against it, rather one that should be welcoming the support that it give as modding can only be beneficial for the game.

I'm not from those who decide what will be and what will not be in Teeworlds, and these devs are not a copy of myself neither. They gave to mods a base (hey, they weren't forced to release the source), the ability to name themselves in the server browser (since 0.5), tunings to be modded, it's not like they hardcoded everything.
They don't support mods, but at a certain extend, they welcome them.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

10 Reply by lamefun (edited by lamefun 2012-08-04 15:30:21)

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Re: Extra major complaint

Dune, you can't fight the community. This is a game of freedom. People are just coming with workarounds when implementing their mods (for example, vehicles consisting of hearts and armour). Why do you try to fight the community instead of helping it? Implementing client mod downloading could let people to make more of their modding desires reality, without being limited by the protocol. Seems like your dream is to make Teeworlds proprietary.

11 Reply by DARK HUNTER

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Re: Extra major complaint

Actually now.... I don't think that he is trying to make it proprietary but rather keep things as they are. I think that he is somewhat stagnating development.

(Forgive me if I'm wrong)

Once in a century...

12 Reply by yemDX

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Re: Extra major complaint

lamefun wrote:

Dune, you can't fight the community. This is a game of freedom. People are just coming with workarounds when implementing their mods (for example, vehicles consisting of hearts and armour). Why do you try to fight the community instead of helping it? Implementing client mod downloading could let people to make more of their modding desires reality, without being limited by the protocol. Seems like your dream is to make Teeworlds proprietary.

the community is dumb, i'd rather fight it

Ex-King of Teeworlds

13 Reply by lamefun

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Re: Extra major complaint

yemDX wrote:

the community is dumb, i'd rather fight it

Except that it's futile. The only way you can fight  it is to hardcode tuning into client. Or make Teeworlds proprietary. Come on, proprietary software is for people, it's cool to be proprietary, proprietary software powers the world!

14 Reply by HeroiAmarelo

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Re: Extra major complaint

In other news...
I like Rainbow Dash.

Playing Teeworlds since 2011!
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15 Reply by lamefun (edited by lamefun 2012-08-04 17:34:50)

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Re: Extra major complaint

HeroiAmarelo wrote:

In other news...
I like Rainbow Dash.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb57525/mlp/images/b/be/Rainbow_Dash_performing_Sonic_Rainboom_S01E16.png

This one? Yes, if not protocol limitations, I could have implemented Aviator with rainbow trail but unfortunately no one wants to have better modding support. In fact, it's not even possible to make proper fire trail -.-


You can see it with GNU/Linux distros, everyone whines about too much diversity but still no one could reduce it even by tiniest bit. It's free software, diversity is inevitable!

16 Reply by ghost (edited by ghost 2012-08-04 21:23:24)

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Re: Extra major complaint

lamefun wrote:

Dune, you can't fight the community. This is a game of freedom. People are just coming with workarounds when implementing their mods (for example, vehicles consisting of hearts and armour). Why do you try to fight the community instead of helping it? Implementing client mod downloading could let people to make more of their modding desires reality, without being limited by the protocol. Seems like your dream is to make Teeworlds proprietary.

We don't want to fight the community, we just want to develop teeworlds. We don't care about mods, we care about teeworlds. and we want teeworlds to stay teeworlds. Teeworlds is a simple fast paced 2d shooter with creatures that look similar to kirbies and what makes it unique is the hook. and ths what tw should stay (imo). I Don't want big complicated mods with tons of extra features. I want a simple and fun game, and this is what teeworlds is right now, and what i hope it will be in the future, too. And feel that most of the developers/modertors/etc. Feel the same way as i do. We put a lot of effort in making this game, like it is now and we don't want it to become something we don't like. If you are not happy with fw the way it is now, i suggest you create a fork, which focuses more on nodding or whatever...

http://www.johannesloher.com/

17 Reply by BotoX (edited by BotoX 2012-08-04 21:26:38)

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Re: Extra major complaint

Remove the rifle. Kill the instagib community.
Extra: Remove the hook. Kill the DDRace community.

18 Reply by lamefun

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Re: Extra major complaint

ghost wrote:

We don't want to fight the community, we just want to develop teeworlds. We don't care about mods, we care about teeworlds. and we want teeworlds to stay teeworlds. Teeworlds is a simple fast paced 2d shooter with creatures that look similar to kirbies and what makes it unique is the hook. and ths what tw should stay (imo). I Don't want big complicated mods with tons of extra features. I want a simple and fun game, and this is what teeworlds is right now, and what i hope it will be in the future, too. And feel that most of the developers/modertors/etc. Feel the same way as i do. We put a lot of effort in making this game, like it is now and we don't want it to become something we don't like. If you are not happy with fw the way it is now, i suggest you create a fork, which focuses more on nodding or whatever...

Modders already do a lot of complicated mods with lots of features, they just have to use workarounds instead of doing anything properly. If you don't want that, feel free to convince Teeworlds developers to make Teeworlds proprietary and legally prohibit mods. Come on, proprietary software is for people, it's cool to be proprietary, proprietary software powers the world!

BotoX wrote:

Remove the rifle. Kill the instagib community.
Extra: Remove the hook. Kill the DDRace community.

They'll work around that, implementing a laggy but working hook and rifle with existing shotgun/grenade projectiles.

19 Reply by unsigned char*

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Re: Extra major complaint

Chsss... the employees are talking ...

Just read and comply with orders ..

Why I'm a pointer? http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Zem9Ozn7BOo/T … itchie.jpg

20 Reply by Dune

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Re: Extra major complaint

I do not know wrote:

Chsss... the employees are talking ...

Just read and comply with orders ..

gtfo.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

21 Reply by Zodiac (edited by Zodiac 2012-08-04 23:29:09)

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Re: Extra major complaint

ghost wrote:
lamefun wrote:

Dune, you can't fight the community. This is a game of freedom. People are just coming with workarounds when implementing their mods (for example, vehicles consisting of hearts and armour). Why do you try to fight the community instead of helping it? Implementing client mod downloading could let people to make more of their modding desires reality, without being limited by the protocol. Seems like your dream is to make Teeworlds proprietary.

We don't want to fight the community, we just want to develop teeworlds. We don't care about mods, we care about teeworlds. and we want teeworlds to stay teeworlds. Teeworlds is a simple fast paced 2d shooter with creatures that look similar to kirbies and what makes it unique is the hook. and ths what tw should stay (imo). I Don't want big complicated mods with tons of extra features. I want a simple and fun game, and this is what teeworlds is right now, and what i hope it will be in the future, too. And feel that most of the developers/modertors/etc. Feel the same way as i do. We put a lot of effort in making this game, like it is now and we don't want it to become something we don't like. If you are not happy with fw the way it is now, i suggest you create a fork, which focuses more on nodding or whatever...

I don't think you understand, people aren't asking you to change the original teeworld's gameplay at all. Its great how it is, I love how the original gameplay is and would never ask for you to compromise on that. All people are asking is to add the ability to load up "complicated mods with tons of extra features" if they wanted to, so people can get the benefit of the original game but at the same time be able to easily change to a different mod if they are in the mood for something extra.

For some reason you guys are taking this personally as if we are attacking the vanilla game, and it isn't like that at all. I play vanilla a lot and would never want you to change it, but no matter how great a game is it can get boring after a while. That is why mods are excellent as when I get bored of vanilla temporarily, I can play X mod then go back to vanilla when I am in the mood for it again... Just want you to consider giving players the opportunity to effortless load mods that offers different gameplay.

I pose this question to you guys. If someone were to edit the teeworlds client to include a mod loader that pulls a list of official mods from online and lets the player download it and play it (or some other solution). Would you consider adding it to the original client, if not why not?

oMod
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22 Reply by Dune

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Re: Extra major complaint

I pose this question to you guys. If someone were to edit the teeworlds client to include a mod loader that pulls a list of official mods from online and lets the player download it and play it. Would you consider adding it to the original client, if not why not?

Probably not, for the sole reason of security issues.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

23 Reply by Zodiac

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Re: Extra major complaint

Dune wrote:

I pose this question to you guys. If someone were to edit the teeworlds client to include a mod loader that pulls a list of official mods from online and lets the player download it and play it. Would you consider adding it to the original client, if not why not?

Probably not, for the sole reason of security issues.

So putting security aside, then it would be considered? Also are you talking about the code being added to Teeworlds being unsafe, or the mods being loaded being insecure? Because to me there is a solution to both these problems.

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24 Reply by Dune

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Re: Extra major complaint

AvidTeeworlder wrote:

So putting security aside, then it would be considered? .

I think so.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

25 Reply by Kirbs (edited by Kirbs 2012-08-05 04:45:49)

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Re: Extra major complaint

I think we should leave teeworlds as the cute, lovable addictive and extremely fast paced game that it is.
I say forget about problems and let everyone have fun, and let everyone make their own things for it (useless or not, teeworlds is opensource). smile
Teeworlds isn't Teeworlds without a hook.
Do not EVER remove the laser please, because the Laser is awesome.
Instagib: No one should have a problem with that. Lots of people play that.
DDrace: Fine.
DM: Perfect. (dm2 with angrybirirds tiles rocks!!)
Lamefun, you are talking about things that could make me cry. sad
I do hate the large amount of funvoters that think that skilled players are bots though.

I am a dm2 (angrybirds tiles) and ctf5,ctf2,ctf8, OpenfngA2test map player, but that doesn't mean I practice other good maps. All you have to do is get in the groove with the map and then you just do the same route (or try to and halfway fail).

focing people to try new maps is horrible.
But I do think that people should at least try new maps.
Its not that bad to try.

no