1 Topic by TeePhoenix

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Topic: Spinbots?

Yes, this topic isnt that important as aimbots, but I still want a discussion about it.
How do you think about Spinbots? Are they ok or is this still cheating like aimbotting?

In my Opinion a Spinbot is still a kind of cheat, because it helps you ingame to do something that others have to do manual (if they ever do it). Another little advantage is that the enemy dont know where you are aiming to.

Some minutes ago I found (on the xyz ctf5 server) one guy that was Spinbotting and I have recorded it. You can download the recordfiles here: http://bphoenix.teevision.eu/teeworlds/Spinbot/ The 3. part is missing because it contains the email of the guy where you can ask to get the bot. If somebody can remove it from the record file, contact me.

If you dont want to watch the record file, you can read the discussion in this extraction of my log file:

Part1
UicDomaj: blues ! you like when Pythonic  and Dont kick me f4  cheat ????
TPhoenix: what?
Dont kick me f4: we does like black side
TPhoenix: ?
*** 'TPhoenix' joined the spectators
Dont kick me f4: freedom
Dont kick me f4: freedom in teeworlds life
UicDomaj: its not my life
TPhoenix: so you have a spinbot?
Dont kick me f4: spinbot is not a cheatr
TPhoenix: i dont know
TPhoenix: but it is pretty annoying
TPhoenix: and you could say it is a cheat because others dont know in which direction you are aiming
TPhoenix: but let the players decide if it is a cheat or not => i make a votekick
*** 'TPhoenix' joined the green team
Dont kick me f4: why you need know direction? i shooting everythning at enemys
*** 'TPhoenix' called for vote to kick 'Dont kick me f4' (Spinbot)
*** 'TPhoenix' joined the spectators
Nastee: it's abot but kicking him will unbalance teams
TPhoenix: maybe
TPhoenix: but it looks that most dont care about
*** 'Dont kick me f4' called for vote to kick 'TPhoenix' (hater)
TPhoenix: hater?
Dont kick me f4: sure
TPhoenix: why?
TPhoenix: because i started a vote to find out if people think a spinbot is legal?
Dont kick me f4: dont be a suck
Dont kick me f4: becouse i dont want play i does like to kick anyoine here
Dont kick me f4: u does
TPhoenix: i want to play
TPhoenix: but i dont play with bots
Dont kick me f4: why?
TPhoenix: because i want to play against humans
TPhoenix: not bots
UicDomaj: me too
TPhoenix: if i would want to play with bots i would play singleplayer teeworlds (if there would be one)
TPhoenix: or on a special bot server
TPhoenix: this one isnt such a server
Dont kick me f4: fun server
Dont kick me f4: this is
Dont kick me f4: see info
Dont kick me f4: nothing about cheats
TPhoenix: fun doesnt mean you can do everything you want
Nastee: bb
TPhoenix: because this ruins the fun of others
Dont kick me f4: see info
TPhoenix: there is nothing at all...
TPhoenix: and you dont have to say: "no cheat allowed" you have to say: "cheats allowed"
TPhoenix: because the usual thing is that cheats arent allowed
TPhoenix: but why do you speak about cheats?
Dont kick me f4: if server for pro players i dont use cheat
nameless tee: gg
TPhoenix: do you still think your spinbot is a cheat?

Part2
Dont kick me f4: spinbot is helpful program for dont spining my mouse when i play long time
TPhoenix: just to let you know i will post the replay of the last game on the forums and ask other people what they are thinking
TPhoenix: aimbotting is helpful for aiming too
Dont kick me f4: idont use ai CTPhoenix: so that players dont need to move the mouse for aiminig
TPhoenix: i didnt said that
Dont kick me f4: u want play with out bot? go out
TPhoenix: go out?
TPhoenix: why?
TPhoenix: this isnt a bot server
Dont kick me f4: i want play dont chat
TPhoenix: but a little ago you said yourself that it is a cheat
Dont kick me f4: just u have problems in your mind
TPhoenix: what?
Dont kick me f4: fun server
TPhoenix: i have problems because i want a normal game without bots?
Dont kick me f4: for fun game
TPhoenix: fun doesnt mean you have the freedom to ruin others fun
Dont kick me f4: i dont want be as all
TPhoenix: so you want to be egoistic and ruin the fun of others?
Dont kick me f4: i hate ppls
Dont kick me f4: this is my choose
TPhoenix: so if it is ok what you do, why do you have another nick?
TPhoenix: whats your real nick?
TPhoenix: there shouldnt be a problem to say your real nick if it is ok
Dont kick me f4: bb idiots in fun server
TPhoenix: now we are idiots?
Dont kick me f4: only you cos you dont let me play
TPhoenix: i let you play if you play without bots
TPhoenix: because this isnt a bot server
Dont kick me f4: cos u are want be a hera as spider man or terminator
Dont kick me f4: robin good
Dont kick me f4: hero
TPhoenix: so i am the hero in your oppinion?
TPhoenix: and you are the guy that want be hunted?
Dont kick me f4: not for me
TPhoenix: but you said it...
Dont kick me f4: you want be hero here
TPhoenix: no i want to play a normal game if i join a normal server
TPhoenix: but you dont let me do that
Dont kick me f4: i want normal play with out kids
TPhoenix: so i am the kid?
TPhoenix: but you are acting like one
TPhoenix: you want to be something special
TPhoenix: you want fun without looking on others => egoistic
TPhoenix: you are talking shit only to be able to fullfill that
Dont kick me f4: server dont have anti spinbot protection
Dont kick me f4: anti cheats
TPhoenix: because such thing isnt possible
Dont kick me f4: imposible????
TPhoenix: yes
Dont kick me f4: all imposible on computer world
TPhoenix: but a kid would say that everything is allowed because there isnt a parent that say its forbidden...
TPhoenix: no it isnt all impossible in computer world
TPhoenix: the problem is that it will be always possible to use a bot even with anti cheat
Dont kick me f4: ok i go to another server with out haters
TPhoenix: so its impossible to implement a useful anti cheat because it would deny the possibility of bots
Dont kick me f4: you are win congrotilans
TPhoenix: if you really cant play with bots its the best way for all
TPhoenix: except for those on the other server
Dont kick me f4: if you dont want play with bots why you dont go to another server?
TPhoenix: because this is a server where bots arent allowed
Dont kick me f4: just u hate me dont want play
TPhoenix: ask an admin if you dont believe me
Dont kick me f4: see info
Dont kick me f4: nothing there
TPhoenix: yes, that doesnt mean that it is allowed
Dont kick me f4: its your guess
Dont kick me f4: bb

Part3
TPhoenix: no it is the oppinion of the teeworlds community
Dont kick me f4: whats dont forbidden than is allowed noob
TPhoenix: so teamhooking is allowed?
TPhoenix: insulting is allowed?
TPhoenix: great thinking...
Dont kick me f4: at fun server ues
TPhoenix: even on fun servers insulting isnt allowed!
Dont kick me f4: becouse that is game
Dont kick me f4: TIME KILLER
Dont kick me f4: ;D
TPhoenix: ah and if you play a game you have to count with insults?
Dont kick me f4: many pro ppl doing spinning mouse
TPhoenix: yes
TPhoenix: they do it without bots
TPhoenix: thats the difference
Dont kick me f4: i dont want spinning my mouse
TPhoenix: then dont spin at all
Dont kick me f4: why i cant use helpfull progeam?
TPhoenix: because this is cheating
TPhoenix: why cant an aimbotter use an aimbot?
Dont kick me f4: its dont true
TPhoenix: its just helpfull too
TPhoenix: and nearly no server has written in the info: "dont use an aimbot"
Dont kick me f4: lol
Dont kick me f4: spinbot dont me effective to kill
TPhoenix: most servers even dont have an info text...
TPhoenix: but it helps you
Dont kick me f4: dont give me
Dont kick me f4: you too can use it
TPhoenix: a zoomclient dont kills too but helps you and is also cheating
Dont kick me f4: subscibe be at *removed*
TPhoenix: so i shall install a susepect client?
Dont kick me f4: you are no right
Dont kick me f4: only exe file
TPhoenix: i still said i want to post this whole talk on the teeworlds forum
TPhoenix: and ask if the rest of the community thinks the same
Dont kick me f4: i know what at forums many developers who will be negative
TPhoenix: but you are the only one that is right?
TPhoenix: yes?
Dont kick me f4: mamy pps think what it is interesting
TPhoenix: what?
Dont kick me f4: whan i spinning
TPhoenix: what?
TPhoenix: i dont get what you are saying
Dont kick me f4: many ppls does think about my spin bot what it is interesting
TPhoenix: interesting maybe
[RIP]JuPiTeR: spin for noobs -_-
TPhoenix: but it doesnt make it legal
[RIP]JuPiTeR: yes
*** 'Dont kick me f4' has left the game
TPhoenix: to everyone: i will post this talk in the official teeworlds forum, so if you want to read it, you are informed now
TPhoenix: bye (have to sight the records)

The face of terrorism is called United States of America!

2 Reply by m!nus

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Re: Spinbots?

I'd say it this way: Automated manipulation of gameplay is discouraged and might result in a ban.

Detecting this should be possible because a real player spinning will slow down/halt spinning before catually shooting, a bot can't do that.

3 Reply by DARK HUNTER

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Re: Spinbots?

TeePhoenix wrote:

*** 'TPhoenix' joined the green team

o.O

Once in a century...

4 Reply by TeePhoenix (edited by TeePhoenix 2011-11-30 15:41:51)

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Re: Spinbots?

Sushis Modpackclient (contains TeeComp). I changed the teamcolors, so that my team is always green (like the teamchat color) and the enemy is always Blue.

The face of terrorism is called United States of America!

5 Reply by Magnet

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Re: Spinbots?

Yes, any kind of client that tempers with the input is a cheat. And it's really a ridiculous cheat, so ridiculous that for a long time I did not believe it existed, but I have confirmation it does. Still, I believe most "spinners" don't use bots, as I am frequently accused of using a "spinbot", that the speed I'm spinning at is "unnatural" (I don't feel it's that fast) and I'm pretty sure I'm cheat-free.

So, for the sake of false positives, I think it would be wiser to ignore spin bots, and for the record there is a way to distinguish them from actual players, but I'd rather not state it publicly to avoid bot makers upgrade their code wink.

6 Reply by Slayer *gV*

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Re: Spinbots?

Don't think it has to be discussed, whether it's cheating or not.
Hiding your current target (where you are aiming at) is a proven way to get an advantag against opponents.
Thus it is cheating as, like mentioned before, it's automatic.

What is more important is to find a way out to distinguish between spinbots and manual spinning.
So I would like to ask you, Magnet: Even if you might spin faster than others, you still have to "slow down/halt spinning before catually shooting" (m!nus), don't you?

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7 Reply by Nater

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Re: Spinbots?

Hello all,

Long and interesting conversation you had there... big_smile

Sometimes I do spin. I have my mouse sens pretty high so I feel like all this momentum has to go somewhere which (for me) results in spinning *sometimes*. You do have to stop for a split second and fire, but to the other tees it doesn't really look like your stopping which results in people thinking I have some type of bot.

What I think some people don't realize is that if you are spinning, it doesn't look as fast to you as it does to others.

~Nater

8 Reply by Dune

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Re: Spinbots?

Slayer *gV* wrote:

So I would like to ask you, Magnet: Even if you might spin faster than others, you still have to "slow down/halt spinning before catually shooting" (m!nus), don't you?

No. Still, it would be very easy to detect them since they are simply generating a random angle to send at every tick. Not even if you would try to you could spin as fast as them, so there's definitely a way to detect that.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

9 Reply by HeroiAmarelo

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Re: Spinbots?

DARK HUNTER wrote:
TeePhoenix wrote:

*** 'TPhoenix' joined the green team

o.O

Gamer Client (TeeComp)

About the Spin, It is annoying, and take consume from the other's connection...
I Dont understand why people use it (I'v allready try it) if the players who use it dont see the spin, for the "Cheaters" the game runs normmaly...

In my opinion, spinbot is just... an annoying bot ._.

Playing Teeworlds since 2011!
"I will always be topless for you"
                  - Günther Branlutte

10 Reply by DARK HUNTER

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Re: Spinbots?

Spinbots kinda of confuse you in instagib matches. Makes you fire like crazy thinking that you will eliminate the threat that way. And truth is firing like crazy will never eliminate the threat,it will only help you get killed during recharge time of the laser rifle.

Real spinbots spin at a constant rate (has a pattern) while human spinners spin at will.

Once in a century...

11 Reply by Nilaya

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Re: Spinbots?

Spinning is also a clever way of masking an aimbot so that you can't see them with their weapon following your movement with perfect aim.

12 Reply by TeePhoenix

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Re: Spinbots?

Yes and in the Aimbot thread I have mentioned a guy, this guy was using a spinbot too (looked the same) but the aimbot was stronger, so that the masking didnt work.

The face of terrorism is called United States of America!

13 Reply by Dune

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Re: Spinbots?

Nilaya wrote:

Spinning is also a clever way of masking an aimbot so that you can't see them with their weapon following your movement with perfect aim.

How clever, it's even more obvious you're botting when doing that.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

14 Reply by Magnet

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Re: Spinbots?

Slayer *gV* wrote:

What is more important is to find a way out to distinguish between spinbots and manual spinning.
So I would like to ask you, Magnet: Even if you might spin faster than others, you still have to "slow down/halt spinning before catually shooting" (m!nus), don't you?

Dune answered, but I don't stop, I even sometimes make a spin round between two shotgun shots -- during the "cooldown" time. I don't spin while hooking or before rehooking but I could, I just find it stupid.

Things to know:
- Spinning becomes a reflex. You don't think, sometimes it can even be stupid to lose your target, but since I got a good aim it's usually not a problem.
- Sometimes I'm moving around, spinning, and hook someone by "luck". I have ingrained in my tee-DNA the reflex to keep the hook (at least long enough to know if it's a teammate or not). Those hooks might look as bot-hooks, they're just luck hook. Sometimes it's not luck, it's just Jedi reflexes smile.

I see sometimes players spinning at speeds that seem inhuman to me, but "inhuman" is a very subjective value.

As Dune stated, one of the possibilities would be to check for the regularity of the spin speed, but the day you do that, spin bots will randomize it. Please don't give new ideas. My detection technique does not rely on speed.

15 Reply by TeePhoenix

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Re: Spinbots?

To the reactions I received (not only here) it seems that there are much more Spinbots out there than I thought...

The face of terrorism is called United States of America!

16 Reply by fameless

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Re: Spinbots?

New Players always judge every "unnormal" movement/aim as bot or cheat.
Its almost impossible to differ between exp. players who used to spin and bots, especially while playing. You might have a chance, if you join the spectators and follow that tee for a longer time.
I have been accused of using such bot, by newbies for like 100k times; especially in Instagib. They don't even know why I am spinning and misinterpret that playing style.

So who's about to judge the wolrd? x)

Anyway that bot just came up, because all those kids think it looks cool to spin, but don't even get the point in what spin really is all about.

Why should I spin anyway?
Basically spin firstly came up in vanilla (where else, cuz at that time there even was no instagib) and started with players hooking different walls in a short time. So the first and main point to spin is movement. If you hook a couple of walls in such short time, you automatically start a kind of spinning and get a feeling for passing edges, etc.

If you hook many walls while running a certain way and get hooked by someone, you increase your chance not being dragged down to that hooking tee. So the next point is defense.

I could write another 100 reasons to spin, especially in attack, 2-3 on 1 situations and escaping with the flag in ctf mods. But that would take too much time. Anyway, to hide the point your aiming at is by far the last and most unimportant reason to spin, because at a certain level its just useless to know. You have to react on everything and everyone, thats around you. Thats like 1000 informations passing you within a single second: moving, aiming, where is the enemy, which weapons / ammo is left, where're my mates, who passed me, counting next weapons, which enemys might appear next, whats whithin my view, looking at the fraq board, talking to teammates via voice chats, ......... So who's watching at which direction your enemy is looking?

Especially in instagib, you just kill everything being close to you.

So far
kyu~

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17 Reply by Slayer *gV*

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Re: Spinbots?

I said that SPINBOTS are cheating as they hide your aiming.
Never said that players spin manually to do so.
Actually this thread is about spinbots....not the technique.

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18 Reply by fameless (edited by fameless 2011-12-06 17:12:10)

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Re: Spinbots?

Slayer *gV* wrote:

I said that SPINBOTS are cheating as they hide your aiming.
Never said that players spin manually to do so.
Actually this thread is about spinbots....not the technique.

The point was just that you can't really tell who's a spinbot and who's not. Imo its unimportant anyway since those bots are totally useless. Like I said above roll

1338 - One step ahead of the average Nerd.

19 Reply by TeePhoenix (edited by TeePhoenix 2011-12-06 17:37:03)

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Re: Spinbots?

The point is that they are still hiding the aim and irritating the enemy. It doesnt matter if you or others look on the aim or dont look on it, you loose the possibility to do, while the other has still the possibility, so it is cheating.

The face of terrorism is called United States of America!

20 Reply by fameless (edited by fameless 2011-12-07 16:28:46)

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Re: Spinbots?

So yeah its a cheat, what now? You can't prevent cheats and bots. There were serval attemps by serval guys to prevent bots and cheats, none worked and will ever do. (especially in open source) Its sad but discussing about it won't help.

Kick the player or leave the server, if its too annoying for you.
But, don't hate the player, hate the game. big_smile

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21 Reply by Dune

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Re: Spinbots?

fameless wrote:

But, don't hate the player, hate the game. big_smile

Not gonna hate Teeworlds because of dumb kids.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

22 Reply by ChrisyFieldz

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Re: Spinbots?

Really I spin Because It's So Distracting (Not W/ Spinbot but Just normal Spin) and then they accuse me of Spinbot When its really just the fact that I use 500000 Mousesens. I actually don't see what's too Faulty about spinbots, Because spinbots are just things that people use to make themselves look cooler most of the time, Even though it Results in Ban. any person who uses spinbot Probably doesnt have the common sense to realize the Other people don't know where they're aiming and it's distracting, they just think its so COOL to use spinbots. So practically, dont hate on people who don't even have the common sense not to use it, they just do.

Italic text

23 Reply by Captain AMN

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Re: Spinbots?

I often get accused of using a spinbot, which is not true actually. I attached my mouse to an electrical hand-mixer and learnt to play with it. It's pretty effective as you might think and pwning on ctf5 with it is a piece of cake (made with the same mixer). Most of you might consider this as cheating, but who cares, if you dont't master the art of spin-mixing you're yet only a noob wishing to be me.

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24 Reply by wappsify

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Re: Spinbots?

Hah, guess what Captain AMN, I learnt to connect my mouse with my electric borer to spin faster than anybody.
If you don't master the art of spin-drilling you're yet only a noob wishing to be me. ^.^

burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.

25 Reply by Mo2

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Re: Spinbots?

dremy wrote:

Spinbots getting really big problem

Not really imho. If you fear regarding spinbots learn to hook. big_smile