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Teeworlds Forum → Discussions → Teeworlds CTF community problem
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We do not seem to have a civilized discussion ever.
Can you tell me what do you want that map to include? What is the map you'd play?
And what have you done so far rustnab? The only constructive argument you bring is that i suck as hell. So please, try to forget about me, my behavior, skill or something else, and answer that question.
I don't suppose the "pro" community is reconsidering the usefulness of the katana on ctf2 now that it has been tweaked.
I dont have to answer any *snip* question. Now you should call that topic "Map problems, noone cares about shitmaps." but not community stuff, its not our fault that the map sux and its not our job to solve every map to be able to play on it on *snip* highlevel. The reason you started the topic is just *snip*. That is what i try to f****** explain you.
Always proplayers dont play the map and they say the map is not as they would like it to be. *snip*
At least we are players like the "noobs" and just play the map we like and we wont let you tell us that we have to play every map cuz we are highlevel!
Accept it and change threadname.
I am RUSterrorist! //I am Landil
Do you care about the fact there's no other maps than ctf2?
No.
Do I care?
Yes.
Is it possible to make good map that you will like?
Yes.
Will you play it?
Seems like yes.
Can I do it without your help right now?
Not.
Is it hard to tell me a few words about what you like?
Not.
So now the question i don't know answer of: why didn't you yet say that? You wrote a tonns of bullshit instead which took for you even more time.
Because its easy.
Players started to play teeworlds.
Players get well.
Players played ctf2 a lot cuz you can play highlevel matches on it.
Other (beginning players) play ctf5 cuz its fun, map becomes most popular map.
Ctf4 were out.
Highlevel community dislike it, they dont play on it.
Ctf7 were released, able to play highlevelmatches on it, highlevelcommunity will take it to maplist.
New ctf4/6 sux, wont be played.
You see smth?
We dont have to do anything, its up to the mappers if they think a map is good enough to release it to get played from players then they release it, and the players decide if they want to play it or not.
Maps like ctf5 are nice j4f, but not for real highlevel games, and as you can see, there are a lot of servers with ctf5, because (sorry) noobs are playing it.
BUT! you want us now to play the maps which sux for highlevelgames and tell you what to change that we are able to play on it, what for?
You should think about, if even the nubs arent playing on the map, the map simply sux.
Ctf5 is the most popular map without being played by highlevels.
Would you change the topic now? :>
I mean its not our fault, if even the nubs dislike the map, just replace the maps with some new tries, till they are funny to play or able for highlevelmatches.
Are you *snip*? I don't want you to play *snip*maps already, i changed my opinion, i ask you WHAT GOOD MAP REQUIRES?! Structure, pickups, graphics, everything you can say!
Damn why you like pissing me off that much.
Whoa, this topic is starting to get way out of hand. This isn't really about who's right and who's wrong—it's about improving map development and in general: the community. Everyone, just relax and discuss this humanely.
There were some things I wanted to interject to... I understand one might have an idea as to a "good" or "professional" map while another would have totally different values to that same idea. To me, this topic seems like a battle of options which is completely subjective. I personally love ctf5 while other players like RUSterrorist and Magnet would love ctf2. I could name the many different reasons I love ctf5 and I’m sure they could do the same for their maps but how people value maps really comes down to is this question, "What are people used to?" and "What have they spent most of their time learning and growing better at?" I know I have spent a lot of my time playing ctf5, mostly because a good deal of mods use that map, and I've grown to adore it. And I'm sure the same can be said about anyone who loves any other map. I personally think the more flexible a player is at skillfully playing any map, the better the all around player is; although some might disagree with that statement. Again; because it’s subjective. But in all, changing the newly added maps is fine but others have grown to love the older maps for their own unique qualities so please don’t change them; having a wide range of maps is the best answer for the wide range of skill in players.
Yeah, and i'm sorry for that. But unfortunately that was the only explanation of the trouble i could find.
So guys, help us making maps better. As you know i'm also making maps, comn, tell me what's wrong, tell Ubu what's wrong with ctf_lava, this may cause you to play this maps further on, when they'll become as good as possible.
So in fact most of us agree that we are not confident with the new maps (ctf4, ctf6) and also ctf5 (I won't say anything about ctf7 now). Why has this happened? As chi1 said earlier, there have been discussions with the pro players about the new maps (ctf6), but apparently it was not enough. On top of that there has been no discussion about ctf4 at all, it was just thrown towards the community with the 0.6 release.
So how to do it in the future?
I suggest to make the development of official maps completely open. I know this might result in a lot of half-finished maps being hosted, and a lot of different versions, but with the new release this will be gone again.
With completely open I mean there should be servers (without password) always hosting the most recent version of the new or to be changed maps, so everybody (and not only the pros) can test them to the extend he/she likes.
We then should create a topic for each map where we can discuss about it and suggest new changes.
I really think this could help preventing situations like this in the future and it will also very likely help in creating better maps.
Everybody was saying that ctf6 is shit before 0.6.0 got released, but however ctf6 has been made official, without considering at all the opinion of the highlevelcommunity.
Imo it's useless to try to make new maps if the mappers don't want to listen the highlevelcommunity, like it was for ctf6.
The mappers just said "the map is perfect" as they think it is in the theory, but they don't understand that in the practice the map sucks. Big speeches will never replace a testgame.
About ctf4, making a random map official just couldn't work.
I would have to agree that community input on new maps/changes to current maps would be a great strategy for future map developing. 
I like the idea of having a 24/7 sever open with the maps constantly being swapped out for the most up-to-date maps. It would be hard for someone to be on the sever 24/7 to jot down all the community criticism, so that most likely can't be a possibility. But some type of recording device which stores all the comments until someone can view them and find the most popular views, could work... Or maybe even an in sever poll which has the most common critiques can be in place so that it could be automatic.
holy shit, why don't you guys just let people play what they want to play?
Everybody was saying that ctf6 is shit before 0.6.0 got released, but however ctf6 has been made official, without considering at all the opinion of the highlevelcommunity.
Imo it's useless to try to make new maps if the mappers don't want to listen the highlevelcommunity, like it was for ctf6.
The mappers just said "the map is perfect" as they think it is in the theory, but they don't understand that in the practice the map sucks. Big speeches will never replace a testgame.About ctf4, making a random map official just couldn't work.
*cough* *cough* there were a lot of test games
*cough* *cough* there were a lot of test games
I was never aware of any testing for ctf4 or ctf6. Maybe that kind of thing could go public and be made for the public next time? 
I would have loved to give my input on those maps while they were progressing.
I know that a lot of the USA community would be up for open criticism and tips for official map testing. I think that instead of the people commenting on the map at the server, they could come to the forum topic and say what they think should be changed/ unchanged. They could use a simple image editor(paint) to circle/ draw arrows to things that need to be moved or graphical bugs etc. But come on guys, the pro community is not the whole community
I am not competitive and i enjoy ctf4 just because its different but ctf6 is just not my thing... I think ctf2 players like ctf2 because of its large scale but smallish structures that allow more complicated movements or less predictable movements. (maps like ctf6/ctf5 have more gradual variability so changing direction is more predictable or is limited more). I don't think 7 hearts+shields in 2 sec is that "unbalanced" because you can lose 7 health pretty quick and there is also respawn time too look out for. (my opinion only). I think since the high skilled players are the "best" players on teeworlds (not to inflate their ego), they should be a large process of play testing new maps because I'm sure they would like new maps that they can play on as well. Anyways, map liking is all opinion and so far, high level players like ctf2. You can't change that. The only thing you can change is making new maps or stop playing with them.
(Stop bashing each other and focus on the problem)
Everybody was saying that ctf6 is shit before 0.6.0 got released, but however ctf6 has been made official, without considering at all the opinion of the highlevelcommunity.
Imo it's useless to try to make new maps if the mappers don't want to listen the highlevelcommunity, like it was for ctf6.
The mappers just said "the map is perfect" as they think it is in the theory, but they don't understand that in the practice the map sucks. Big speeches will never replace a testgame.About ctf4, making a random map official just couldn't work.
Thank goodness the mappers (I love you chi1) ignored the high level community's thoughts, because ctf4 and ctf6 are both fun maps, and I would be pretty sad if they weren't here. Many hours have gone into those maps.
Choupom, just because the maps are not good for high level play does not mean they are not good for fun.
The mappers need to stop caring what high level players think, and the high level players need to, in general, grow up.
This entire thread has just been "STOP LIKING WHAT I LIKE", "STOP DISLIKING WHAT I LIKE", "START LIKING WHAT I LIKE", and "START HATING WHAT I HATE".
We can't even have a conversation without it turning into a flamewar. This community needs to grow up.
yemDX, we're talking about the fact those maps are bad for pros, this is the trouble we seem to have.
ctf6 was made to be competitive, so i can't understand why the mappers didn't consider the opinion of the highlevelcommunity, it seems paradoxical. I know that making maps (good or not) takes a lot of time but this isn't a reason to make them all official.
Furthermore ctf6 has been tested several times, and from the first game we saw that there were several things wrong (ctf7 is a good example to compare again). Several other testgames unfortunately confirmed our first thoughts.
And, open Teeworlds and see in the server list that even the not-highlevelcommunity players don't play ctf4 and ctf6 much in vanilla (though i saw great 8n8 on ctf4 the day 0.6.0 got released).
Choupom, just because the maps are not good for high level play does not mean they are not good for fun.
The mappers need to stop caring what high level players think, and the high level players need to, in general, grow up.
You are right to some degree: Those maps may be fun for low- or midlevel games. However, as stated before for highlevel they suck. You say the mappers should not care about the opinion of the highlevel scene. Why? The goal main goal for official maps should be that they are both competitive and also fun for the average player. This is not an easy job, as especially making a map competitive and balanced is quite hard. This is why I think the input from the highlevel scene is definitely needed for future map development. Of course it should not only be about the pros. We should also think about whether noobs will be able to move in that map and so on. This means criticism and suggestions from other players should be welcome, too. Of course we can't satisfy everybody's needs, but getting a wider rage of opinions and ideas will help to make the maps better in general.
If the official mappers for some reason decide to follow your suggestion, and stop taking tips from the highlevel scene, what'll happen is exactly what magnet said earlier: We will stop playing the official maps and start using the old ones or even create our own competitive maps (e.g. ctf_lava).
Once again: I agree that teeworlds is not only about highlevel, but it is ALSO about highlevel and thus the official maps should be made competitive enough for the highlevel scene.
ctf6 was made to be competitive, so i can't understand why the mappers didn't consider the opinion of the highlevelcommunity, it seems paradoxical. I know that making maps (good or not) takes a lot of time but this isn't a reason to make them all official.
Furthermore ctf6 has been tested several times, and from the first game we saw that there were several things wrong (ctf7 is a good example to compare again). Several other testgames unfortunately confirmed our first thoughts.
And, open Teeworlds and see in the server list that even the not-highlevelcommunity players don't play ctf4 and ctf6 much in vanilla (though i saw great 8n8 on ctf4 the day 0.6.0 got released).
As earlier noted, I did reach out to big parts of the ctf2 community and asked them to test play and give suggestions, few games were played and even fewer suggestions were made. ctf4 was also made in co-operation with people from that community. Saying that we haven't tried to develop those maps in the open is plain untrue. Rather, the interest of participating in making those maps suit that community better has been rather low.
Landil wrote:*cough* *cough* there were a lot of test games
I was never aware of any testing for ctf4 or ctf6. Maybe that kind of thing could go public and be made for the public next time?
I would have loved to give my input on those maps while they were progressing.
We're not really going to be hosting servers for everyone, since there has been problems before with half-finished maps leaking out and having a gazillion different versions of the same map hosted everywhere. Although as said, I sent (especially ctf6) to several people in the ctf2 scene, asked them to host it, play it, and see what can be improved. I also hosted 2-3 games myself. Close to none substantial suggestions came from that.
Although as said, I sent (especially ctf6) to several people in the ctf2 scene, asked them to host it, play it, and see what can be improved. I also hosted 2-3 games myself. Close to none substantial suggestions came from that.
Sure, people don't care about the newcoming maps. So we're back for our problem - community is a trouble. Ofc we're not able to force them helping us, but perhaps we can create some kind of test team. That is gonna include good players who wants to help developing maps. I already broke my nerves trying to let rustnab tell me sth useful, so I suppose this needs invite system. "-Do you want to be a tester? -I do. -Welcome in".
Well personally i don't think that the highlevelcommunity players don't want to help.
Maybe they just don't have the possibility to do it (they don't have a way to contact the mappers) and they in some cases aren't even aware that the map can be tested (it's really closed-testing : for ctf6 there was 1 server with a password that you can get only on IRC asking the right person, and the map is called something like "z23" so you are sure to not be aware of anything, except if you usually read teesites ; for ctf4 nobody knew that it would get official, so there was no way to test it and give suggestions).
If this thread is meant to find a solution to this problem, maybe a topic for each new map could be created in the forum where the players (from the highlevelcommunity or not) could give suggestions that the mappers would consider, and a server to test the map could be hosted 24/7.
If this thread is meant to find a solution to this problem, maybe a topic for each new map could be created in the forum where the players (from the highlevelcommunity or not) could give suggestions that the mappers would consider, and a server to test the map could be hosted 24/7.
I completely agree with that, as it is mostly what I suggested earlier in this thread.
I also agree with chi1 that there have been some attempts to involve the highlevel scene in the process of map creation. However it failed for some reason, and I believe the reason to be the fact, that the testing was still too private. I do see the problem of half finished maps being leaked, but I think we can find a proper solution. Creating forum threads for the new maps would be a good start in my opinion.
The spreading of ctf6 was the responsibility of some key individuals in the community, and almost everyone asking me for the map was given it, so the closed testing is really to big part because of the community. I dunno who is "high level" and who isn't, that's why I let others do the spreading.
I don't have the possibility of hosting servers and stuff. If no one can be bothered to even host the maps, I doubt they will be bothered to help improving it, I will see if it's possible to release maps publicly for the next cycle, but that isn't the solution to the problem we're actually in this thread for.
You say ctf6 isn't good enough, and that development of it has been too closed.. Guess what, it's completely open now and everyone is having the chance to try it, let's get a healthy discussion going on how we can improve it for 0.7.0 I've always been open to tweaked versions of maps being sent in (that's how dm8 edits and ctf7 was brought into this cycle) so there's nothing stopping you.
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