Teeworlds CTF community problem (Page 1 of 3)

As far as i understood it, you want to tell the highlevelplayers that they are nubs cuz they dont play others map often?^^

If yes, on which map do you want that i pwn you to prove you that i can own on every map?^^

at least its cute what you are trying

but the same way its senseless, we are the highlevel scene if you want it, or not because we play ctf2 most.

we already try to add ctf7 or smth like that in the "playlist" but what for ctf6?
its only a big annoying map for 8on8 like ctf5, its good j4f but not if you want to mess up your skill.

and afaik, there already was a match on ctf6, Qi vs the world, or smth like that (Qi won ofc)

It's a nice stuff you got a sense of humor AMN, but i think topic deserves to be discussed serious, isn't it? You already had enough fun not listening to me, find a couple of minutes for this problem.
RUSterrorist, honestly, how did you come to the conclusion this map is 8v8 and, which is even more strange, for noobs? I won't disagree yet, but i need an arguments that will prove me and rest that ctf6 is really WORSE than ctf2. Otherwise => read first post again.

Stay wild

1) True, but i noticed that so everyone could understand that this map was done very long time ago, when hooking walls wasn't too popular and didn't seem important. Because, actually, the age of this map is the main trouble here: pro players like it too much because they didn't like anything else for pretty long time.
2) The fact is that 1-tile wall harder to hook, which creates rare, still undesirable mistakes, and also it looks ugly when such a long narrow piece is flying in the air, it always seemed to me like it is gonna broke. Also you're able to shoot enemies throught this wall, and in most of the times it's a luck shots (say thanks you're not able to hammer throught it already).
3) About health: do not forget that ctf6 is much bigger, and gotta say that there you can find only armor, that means time to time you still need to go out for health. In ctf2 you can simply collect all the pickups, become fat and sit there like in a fortress, which creates stupid confrontations with 2 flagcarriers which can last half the game. I'm not sure if that is called balance.
Why did i make a topic about it? As i already said, it was jsut an example. Look the number of players in 0.6 and in 0.5. It is already nothing about pros, but still: people are playing old versions. They're too conservate, which is a big problem. I've never met this somewhere else. So this is why teeworlds community is destroying: it has no evolution, we're making 1 step a year, this game deserves more than a bunch of oldfags hanging every evening (no arguing pls, it's true).
And, yeah, was my mistake to start this question ingame, but i talked about this problem with different people, both noobs or pros, and once it's just happened so that i got bored of it and started shitting around with my opinion. Sorry for that.

Stay wild

I'm brazilian, so I'm applying our scene over here:
ctf5 and ctf6 are big maps, they require more players. Thus, if we want a good fight we need more good players than we need in ctf2.
Sure, we have such players, but it's not that easy to have all of them around at the same time.

In a medium map like ctf2 we can do our "tasks" ingame well. It's not that hard to track down the flagcarrier; meanwhile, in ctf5, you can spend a really good time just trying to find that player. That's not really cool.

Also, ctf7 is a small map and it always end up leaving some players out of the game. Of course, we can rotate. But when you add newbies to these rotating players, the game can turn out to be really boring.

I'm not saying I don't like ctf5 and ctf6. I actually find them pretty nice.
We might give a try to ctf6, but I consider ctf5 a fun map, not up for serious matches.

I agree with Slinack, because ToF DESTROYS Qi!

I just like ctf2 becuase other people do. i like the others as well, but ctf3 remains my favorite

Another thing about the highlevel scene is that they are so damn cocky

There's 6v6 capgames time to time, so i see no reason to disagree playing those capgames on ctf6. At ctf2 it's even worse because players get too less pickups, block each other etc.
ctf4 seems for me to be good 3v3 map. Which is actually a good news, because popular ctf3 also got some troubles. Still gotta say that ctf4 is the worst map among added, there's too much corners and structure isn't yet perfect.
And right, ctf2 is perfect for 5v5, so we need some kind of 4v4 map. It might be reworked ctf4 or even ctf8, whatever you like. Still i feel like there's too much pickups when playing 4v4 clanwars.

Stay wild

I agree with the general sentiment that people are reluctant to play new maps because they're comfortable where they are. A good example was ctf_lava which is an awesome & well thought map for the pro community and wasn't greeted with much optimism. However I think people are OK to play other maps in general when they're official, but the maps have to be decent first. The new ctf4 and ctf6, just like ctf5, are completely inappropriate for challenging games. If I didn't know better I would think they are designed to be unplayable.

As RUS said, and that should just show you your argument is wrong Variecs, we played a 4on4 on the new ctf4 against iB. If one of the two main "pro" teams did a CW there, it's a proof that we want to test and play all maps. It was a random, very bad game, the map has no flow. Of course Qi won anyway . It shares a problem ctf6 has, the lack of proper pickups. When you criticized ctf2 pickups location, you lost your argument already because it showed you didn't realize how smart this was. Hearts and shields in bases aren't only for flaggers, they're also for attackers! Actually, pickups position AND usage is a very important aspect of the relation between maps & in-game playing.

Ctf6's separation of hearts and shields is an attempt at forcing flaggers to move out of base to get refills, because we feared too much camping and blocky situations in the 7on7/8on8 mode it was made for (how I know? Because the map was made by Steph for that purpose when I kept asking for a decent "big game" pro map to supplement ctf5). The problem is that it doesn't work, and that there aren't enough pickups for that number of players. It's simple math, you look at ctf2's perfect ratio of pickups/kind/player in 5on5 and you keep that ratio for all maps, but hey, some people have different opinions, no problem with me, but then you can't expect the "pro" community to play maps that aren't designed for the actual pace of pro games (lots of deaths, etc). ctf6 is the ugly step child of ctf_lava and ctf3 and whether it comes to strategic possibilities *or* tricks, it falls short compared to ctf2.

We do love ctf2, but we're not conservative. Unlike what you say, most of the so-called pro community were first to move to 0.6.0. The problem with maps is that there is no decent replacement, the day we have one, we will probably have map rotations and play them all.

PS: yes, we did have cap games on ctf6 ... after and before it was called ctf6

I guess this is ironic, but just for the record: why not let people who actually master the game rather than the map editor decide what makes sense and what doesn't? You say you can get 7 shields+hearts within 2secs, but 2s are an eternity in a high-level game. The new maps that dramatically lack pickups make boring games where you spend your life with a pistol and 6 hp (and die when meeting the first opponent with a grenade launcher, who got it thanks to a lucky timing) and that's why they're not interesting for high-level. Anyone is free to disagree with this fact, but then you must also agree those maps aren't suitable for what we call high-level. And that's why the day ctf2 is changed, we will keep on playing "ctf2_old" which we will in fact call "ctf2_true" .

PS: by saying the gameplay is defending the flag, you just described CTF . But there are more positions & dynamics in ctf2 than just camping base, even if that's the basic strategy that works on any map. Also, I don't think defending on ctf2 is easy, it's in fact easier on most other ctf maps.

Why are you referring to 0.3? The items/weapons didn't change that much since 0.3. The biggest changes since 0.3: the movements. Surprisingly ctf2 is even better with the new movements of 0.4, whereas dm2 is awful. Maybe it was pure luck, maybe matricks tweaked the movements to fit ctf2, I don't know. But what I know is that the problem isn't ctf2.

I think that the high level community wants to play new maps, it is not like they never tried to introduce new maps. Personally I tried and failed with ctf_lava, but I am ready to improve the map if people show interest, suggest me ideas...

I never complained about your lack of skill.
I just think you try to make us playing new maps will make your chances better to get chosen.

And now you are talking about "replacing" ctf2, loool.
Stop making troubles where arent some.
In highlevel counterstrike games they dont replace a map cuz its fucking old, too.
They just add sometimes a new well playable map, like we did with ctf7.
But the rest is shit.

I've been following this topic but decided not to join in the discussion, everyone knows my opinion and it's much more interesting for me to hear what the community thinks either way.

With that being said, I specifically reached out to the ctf2 community, gave several people access to the beta version of ctf6 and asked for them to try it out as much as possible and give suggestions for improvement. afaik that resulted in the total number of 3 cap games, of which all I was the leading force in organizing, and of which very little suggestions were sent in. There's much good talk about being open to new maps, but when it comes to actually improving the situation there's quite alot to ask for. I might be the main map dev, but as most of you guys know I'm not in the top tier of ctf2 community, so I'm asking for support from you guys.

Anyway, this is a good discussion, and you should know that I'm following it, just refer from doing personal attacks and instead try to be productive!