1 Topic by Ubuntu

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Topic: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

From the games I played, I came to think that the bounce of the laser should be removed. Why?

- First, bounces on purpose are so rare that it is more about luck than skill. I think that any demo should prove that point. Sometimes the shooter miss his target, but he still kills the target with a lucky bounce which wasn't on purpose. I agree that the bounce itself needs skill, when you really want to use it, but when I play the proportion of lucky bounces is higher than the proportion of skilled bounces.

- Secondly, what is the purpose of the laser? According to matricks:

matricks wrote:

It was made to be a hunting rifle, kill off flag carriers etc. High initial damage and long reload like the rail in quake 3. The bounce was added to be able to kill carriers that are one corner away.

So the purpose of the laser is to chase people, but from my experience the bounce doesn't help here (or it is really rare). Itself without the bounce, the rifle is already powerful to kill flaggers. So removing the bounce wouldn't change the goal and the use of this weapon.

What do you think? Do you often use the bounce of the laser on purpose? In real games, are there for you more lucky bounces or more bounces on purpose?


matricks wrote:

However, I will not make any balance changes based on forum posts because I have no idea how you guys play and why you complain. The balance changes I've decided for 0.5.0 are based on me watching people play and how they play. After 0.5.0 it will be easier for me to do balance stuff because people can record matches and I can review loads of matches over and over to see how people are actually playing.

So I start with a recent demo of myself playing "middle position" on ctf2 where I had easily access to the laser: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GEUQS9KB
You can see a lucky bounce for example at 28.30 sec (time of the demo).

Post yours demos so we can see if the bounce is really useful or not.


/!\ This post is about pure Teeworlds, not about mods (instagib...)

2 Reply by Scorpyn (edited by Scorpyn 2010-01-27 12:56:23)

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

I'm new to this game so this input may be somewhat off (I didn't even know that the laser bounced, that's how new I am).

Anyway.

If bouncing is too difficult, then perhaps you could try moving it to another weapon with low damage and high rate of fire?

Bow with apple on the end of the arrows, the apple breaking on 1st impact, causing more damage if bouncing first?

3 Reply by torch

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

I think your points about the lucky-bounce factor are all valid, and if you ask me I rarely use the laser bounce on-purpose, but I would like to point out that you should not 'judge' such important factors like changing a weapons behaviour on just one gametype, and few maps, since only 2 official maps (played on hi-level) in ctf have the laser - ctf2 and ctf3. Moreover I think laser bounce is very handy in ctf3 - the map structure makes it hard to attack, so using the bounce can be really useful. I dont know how important the laser is in DM/TDM since I dont play those too often, I just know there isn't any on dm1, so it has no impact on duels.

We will meet again when the flowers spread their glorious scent of victory and the birds sing us the melody of justice...

4 Reply by Chi11y

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

I'm with torch here: Judging the laser only from one map's viewpoint is as bad as judging it from the viewpoint of mods. The laserbounce have good use in both ctf3 and especially ctf4 (although it might not be played highlevel, it's actively played).

It's alot more common that people are shooting grenades offscreen which are completely luck based, that doesn't mean gl should be nerfed.

And finally about forgiveness, the gl has splash damage, is that bad because it kills even if you aim badly?

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5 Reply by Landil

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

the rifle should not be nerfed! The bounce is the unique selling point. It is quite mighty, sure, but it's hard to master and needs some skill. In addition it is useful to the players who have a high ping, as they can shoot right a lil' bit in front of the tee to make sure that it will get hurt.

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!

6 Reply by Ubuntu (edited by Ubuntu 2010-01-27 20:43:25)

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

@ torch, chi11y:

I think you missed my point...

I am not talking of different maps, of different gametypes, you are. I didn't make any differences between ctf, tdm, dm. I uploaded a demo of ctf2 because I had this demo in my folder, it is only an example.

landil wrote:

. It is quite mighty, sure, but it's hard to master and needs some skill. In addition it is useful to the players who have a high ping, as they can shoot right a lil' bit in front of the tee to make sure that it will get hurt.

Again it seems you misunderstood me about the possible use of the bounce, I am not saying that it is useless. I am saying, that it needs skill to be mastered. But even with or without skill, the lucky bounces are more frequent than the skilled bounces. That's why I think there is a problem, as AMN said:

AMN wrote:

I remember matricks saying once that an important principle of teeworlds is that this game should not be affected by random factors or coincidence, but rather skill and advanced techniques.

So now if you agree with this statement, tell me if in real games (public, high level etc.), the bounce of the laser brings more randomness or more skill. With the answer to that, we will know if yes or no the bounce of the laser has to be removed.

So upload demos of games with lasers and show us if the bounce of the laser is more about skill or luck.


Landil wrote:

The bounce is the unique selling point.

I am sorry, but this argument sounds stupid. You prefer to have something which makes a weapon cool than to have something which balances the gameplay. Try to play without the bounce of the laser, you will see that the weapon is still powerful...


chi11y wrote:

It's alot more common that people are shooting grenades offscreen which are completely luck based, that doesn't mean gl should be nerfed.

And finally about forgiveness, the gl has splash damage, is that bad because it kills even if you aim badly?

With both weapons if you shoot blindly, you can hit people, so no big differences here.

The difference is :
Someone fails to hit you with a grenade-launcher => it doesn't hurt you
Someone fails to hit you with a laser => sometimes it hurt you
Is it normal?

Not to mention, that you can avoid a grenade and not a laser...

7 Reply by Slinack (edited by Slinack 2010-01-27 21:15:07)

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

Even if you don't know how to play with the grenade launcher, you can still do some lucky shots. Same with the laser.

Bounce is a good technique, which probably a few players have mastered (if there are any), but we are here to learn, and it gives different perspectives to the laser's aiming.

I really disagree with removing the bounce.

smile

check out these maps: infiltrate - choco - dustycloud

8 Reply by Bee

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

I don't know about anyone else but I use the laser bounce considerably a lot since it gives a wider range of hit possibility. It's hard for me to use first shot since most severs are Europe based and I'm in the U.S.A. (a.k.a. high ping) I use it more skill based than just random guess, but once in a while I shoot blindly or my aim is way off and I still manage to hit them with first shot, but most the time, the bounce. But I would have to say that I use the bazooka (grenade launcher) a lot more for random guess shots. But sometimes I have to use my skill to know were best to randomly guess and shoot.

All in all I'm saying, if anything, get rid of the bazooka than the laser, but don't get rid of the bazooka ether since I love it the most. :'C

Give others the respect you wish to be respected with. In the mean time, enjoy the website!

9 Reply by Chi11y

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

Someone fails to hit you with a grenade-launcher => it doesn't hurt you

Remember splash damage?

http://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2799 is the old thread about laser nerf, I'm suggesting that people skim thru it to see what has been brought up before and what hasn't before repeating too much here.

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10 Reply by Ubuntu

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

For the splash of the grenade, I don't know what was the goal of matricks. But I suppose that the splash damage is here to compensate the difficulty to use the grenade launcher. So we could say that even with the splash damage it is not a total fail.

For the bounce if I refer to matricks, he said that the purpose was "to be able to kill carriers that are one corner away". It sounds to me that the bounce wasn't added to compensate a lack or a difficulty in the use of the laser. And even if it is not the case, I would only say that the laser doesn't neeed a bounce to be powerful, there is no weakness to compensate.

So I don't think you can compare that easily the two weapons. But I might be wrong with the purpose of the splash damage. Oh and you forget the fact that you can't dodge a laser...


Slinack wrote:

Bounce is a good technique, which probably a few players have mastered (if there are any)

Do have I to understand here that only few players do it on purpose and that the rest of the players are lucky?
__________

Anyway, with the demos posted, I think it shows that the bounce is more about luck. So if you claim that the bounce is more about skill, upload demos of real games... It is too easy to just say that it shouldn't be changed.

Here is a short demo of Huskil (who doesn't want the bounce to be removed) on ctf2 with some lucky bounces: http://www.speedyshare.com/files/206023 … ounce.demo

11 Reply by matricks

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

I might do a longer post about this later on but for now. Stop abusing the word luck.

Luck: an unknown and unpredictable phenomenon that leads to a favorable outcome.

The laser bounce is not unknown and unpredictable because there are no random factors in it, like all teeworlds code. Of cause there are cases were you hit things that you didn't expect to do, you can do that with grenades as well.

The bounce was added because I didn't want to it be just an instant hit rail-type weapon, I wanted something more. The bounce makes it a bit more versatile if you are able to use it in chase scenarios.

12 Reply by Landil

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

I am sorry, but this argument sounds stupid. You prefer to have something which makes a weapon cool than to have something which balances the gameplay. Try to play without the bounce of the laser, you will see that the weapon is still powerful...

The point is that laser bounce is the spirit of the weapon. Bounce is not a matter of luck, it's a matter of skill -  have a look at instagib pros, they use it very often! of course there are lucky bounces, but there are lucky hits of grenades or pistols as well. Another point is that laser is nearly unplayable for players with a ping >100ms. Bounce can help them to stay competetive.

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!

13 Reply by torch

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

Very interesting discussion going on, and many valid points too. I have read the older discussion about tweaking the laser and there are valid points there too. In my opinion laser bounces have nothing to do with luck - they are a coincidence, but so is a coincidence if I shoot a random rocket somewhere i dont see, but expect my enemy - not because i saw him, but because i am shooting at a place where player traffic is frequent. I'm talking about rocket spam, and if I hit while rocket spamming it's the same coincidence as if I hit with a missed laser shot. I am not comparing the laser to the rl here, just pointing out that luck-shots are possible with the rl too, but they happen less frequent, or are claimed not to be luck but intuition.

I think the main problem with the rifle is that it is superficial to all weapons - in means of attacking another player. You can attack at any range, from standing next to your opponent to being out of his sight, you are hitting instantly and do a solid 5 dmg. Most of the bounces which hit even when missed are a linear outcome of this situation - when you are standing too close to your opponent and miss, the bounce has a bigger chance of hitting back because the bounce is longer; if you shoot at someone from bigger distance the bounce is smaller, and usually at very low angle.

My proposed solution to this problem is to make the laser take damage based upon the length of the ray travelling from the weapon to the victim. The minimum damage would be 2 and maximum would be 5. Being out of hook range would be around 4 dmg to discourage the usage of this weapon in close combat. This would also encourage players to use the bounce on-purpose because you can deal more damage if you hit a close enemy with a bounce rather that with a direct hit. And maybe the bounce could deal 1 additional damage regardless of ray length. This surely wont prevent all luck-shots but I think it will help, since people wont use the rifle as an all-purpose hunting weapon, but only for certain situations like all the other weapons.

We will meet again when the flowers spread their glorious scent of victory and the birds sing us the melody of justice...

14 Reply by Chi11y

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

The rangebased dmg of laser is a concept that is good and tried. That is what we did in teestrike with the sharkbait to make it's gameplay more snipery and it made the laser actually do what is was thought to do. I'm all in favor for such a change, much rather than just removing the bounce.

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15 Reply by ali || ksa

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

Ubuntu i respect your call and i understand it but teeworlds is a public game played by many people you cant just change something on some simple stuff like this it is a good game the way it is but if you really want this just go and look for servers where the lazer bounce is 0 or make your own server with that option but forcing all players is an option done by the owners (i am not saying they cant do it) but it is their  choice  you can play on servers without lazer bounce that is all i am saying big_smile

I am not a pro and not a noob but try my best
i am not from Ksa i am from oman big_smile

16 Reply by Chi11y

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

ali || ksa wrote:

Ubuntu i respect your call and i understand it but teeworlds is a public game played by many people you cant just change something on some simple stuff like this it is a good game the way it is but if you really want this just go and look for servers where the lazer bounce is 0 or make your own server with that option but forcing all players is an option done by the owners (i am not saying they cant do it) but it is their  choice  you can play on servers without lazer bounce that is all i am saying big_smile

Teeworlds is still beta, hence 0.5.2, not 5.2. Much bigger changes have been done and will be done in the future for sure. smile

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17 Reply by Ubuntu (edited by Ubuntu 2010-01-28 19:43:00)

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

I will try to clarify, what I want to say:

Let's suppose that we can make some statistics of the use of the laser bounce.

/!\ The numbers here are only examples.

Scenario 1:
IF in noob games, the repartition of bounce kills is like: 95% unwanted by the shooter, 5% wanted by the shooter
AND IF in pro games, the repartition of bounce kills is like: 60% unwanted by the shooter, 40% wanted by the shooter
Then I think we can all agree on the fact that the bounce should be removed, because it brings too much randomness.
[If you disagree with the conclusion here, I guess we juste have to close this thread]

Scenario 2:
IF in noob games, the repartition of bounce kills is like: 45% unwanted by the shooter, 55% wanted by the shooter
AND IF in pro games, the repartition of bounce kills is like: 20% unwanted by the shooter, 80% wanted by the shooter
Then I think we can all agree on the fact that the bounce should stay.

From my experience, I believe (I might be wrong) that the reality is something like the scenario 1 (not the same numbers of course).
_________

@ Landil: I agreed many times on the fact that when you use on purpose the bounce, it is a matter of skill. But I think the bounces on purpose are not that frequent in pure Teeworlds...
_________

matricks wrote:

The bounce was added because I didn't want to it be just an instant hit rail-type weapon, I wanted something more. The bounce makes it a bit more versatile if you are able to use it in chase scenarios.

I think like AMN that you failed here (because I think the reality looks like the scenario 1), in the games that I play the bounce isn't in general used on purpose.

18 Reply by Golvmopp

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

I just want to say that discussing this will get you nothing but frustration and rather pointless arguments. If you have an idea how to "fix" the laser, then show that idea to the world. Show us a laser without a bounce, or a laser with damage based on range. Teeworlds is one of the most modded games I've ever seen, and you're not even utilizing the possibilities here. If you can't code it yourself, then ask someone who can. There are plenty of people out there.

Show us something and let actual usage decide.


Also, I felt like contradicting myself is the perfect way of ending this little post of mine, so here's my idea:

It's actually an old idea I dropped in the other (probably long forgotten) wall-of-text-laser-discussion thread. Anyway. The idea.

Instead of instantly doing damage when you hit fire, you need to "charge up" your laser. Depending on the time you press and hold fire, the more damage the laser will do. This makes it necessary to actually know what you're doing.

Pros: Adds a need for precision and tactical planning.
Cons: You'll have to learn to hold fire while you're hooking and know when to aim.

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19 Reply by Landil

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

I'd be happy to see some coding and finally heavy testing on the two mentioned solutions (Teestrike's sharkbait and golvmopps charging laser).

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!

20 Reply by ali || ksa

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

golvmopp actually has a point we are arguing in an endless discussion where both of us are right and wrong and also that some actual work has to be done i am not a programmer (sure want to be) but i think that there are possiblities to make these ideas real and thanks Ubu for bringing this up because i know that your aim is to make teeworlds a better game
smile
ali || ksa

I am not a pro and not a noob but try my best
i am not from Ksa i am from oman big_smile

21 Reply by Lanta

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

Landil wrote:

I'd be happy to see some coding and finally heavy testing on the two mentioned solutions (Teestrike's sharkbait and golvmopps charging laser).

Or maybe both together tongue (charging laser with differend damage based on distance and charge)
By the way, I think bounce are not so useless. I think the point is not "bounce or not bounce", the point is "how to prevent noobs to make laser luck shots". And both methods are very good ideas.

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22 Reply by Slinack

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

I think charging laser does not fit into fast games. ^^

check out these maps: infiltrate - choco - dustycloud

23 Reply by Bee

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

Captain AMN wrote:

Also i don't know why people keep on comparing the grenade launcher with the laser. The laser is long range point and click a.k.a. easy to hit weapon, whereas the launcher has a curvature which has to be predicted each shot to estimate the projectile range.

Maybe it's just the way I play, but it is not easy to hit with, maybe for 43 ping gamers, but not me.
Like I said before, I do see people (mostly noobs) using the bazooka a hell of a lot more for lucky shots (and even more so the gun) than the laser. The only time I really see laser luck shots are from pros because noobs dare not use the laser since it really does use more skill than most weapons.
Now, I do think that Ubuntu's Scenario 1 is close to the truth but if we start taking out stuff so we can make teeworlds more and more skill and no luck orientated then where would we stop? And what could we possibly add to the game? I'm all for skill, but sometimes a game is funner with a little random chance involved too.

Give others the respect you wish to be respected with. In the mean time, enjoy the website!

24 Reply by Chi11y

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

90% chance to get a "luck" shot (matricks explained very well why you shouldn't use those wordings btw) is much less a fact than any of what Bee said.Me myself, I'm guessing I have much higher hit percentage with gl aswell.

Whole this thread feels like on of those "I WAS KILLED BY LAS0R, NERF NEEDED" threads. The laser bounces aren't instant, that should mean that the unbelievable skill regularly showed by top players should enable them to gracefully dodge those bounces, isn't it so? You can clearly see when a laser beam is hitting a wall, where it came from, and predict where it will end up during the bounce delay. No luck involved, dodging skills is the only factor.

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25 Reply by Ubuntu (edited by Ubuntu 2010-01-29 12:43:54)

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Re: [SUGGESTION] Removing the bounce of the laser

@ Chi11y:

Let's imagine a third scenario:
IF in noob games, the repartition of bounce kills is like: 100% unwanted by the shooter, 0% wanted by the shooter
AND IF in pro games, the repartition of bounce kills is like: 95% unwanted by the shooter, 5% wanted by the shooter

Do you think that in this case we shouldn't change the bounce of the laser?

___________

matricks wrote:

Luck: an unknown and unpredictable phenomenon that leads to a favorable outcome.

When I don't think of the bounce, I don't try to predict at all, it is like it doesn't exist for me. So if I do an abstraction of the laser bounce when I use the laser and that I kill someone with the bounce, I will call this: luck. Of course if you refer to the Teeworlds engine and pro players who think of the bounce, it will not be luck. But not every player think of the bounce (look the third post of the thread...).