76 Reply by Tom94

  • Tom94
  • Tom94
  • Member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

Imho the best way to detect cheaters still are active people moderating the server.
I know, that this requires the admin to do more than the most others, but if the server seems valuable for him, i guess he will do whatever is needed to keep it clean.

Even if you don't want to share your rcon with others, there are STILL possibilities to get people limited rcon access which can be 100%ly defined by the admin. In vanilla and in instagib.

Aimbots are pretty easy to detect as nobody ever thought about making an undetectable aimbot (even by others). You cant see the aimbotter's gun move from the point he is aiming to the point the enemy is. His aim just changes direction from one moment to the other and shoots INSTANTLY. If those hit in 10/10 cases all in a row, then you can be kinda sure it is an aimbotter. Also you should check if sometimes the aim is normal.
Maybe he isnt cheating at all (but still the 10/10 case method of those suspicious shots still works) or he is smart and turns the bot off.
Even if you compare a really pro instagib player with an aimbotter, you can see the difference at once.

The problem isnt TeeWorlds having no cheatprotection, the problem is that the server admins don't really care / know how to solve the problem.

~{MonkeyStyle}~ - Instagib Teeworlds Clan
VISIT US: http://monkeystyle.xooit.com/
Check out our IRC channel: #monkeystyle on QuakeNet || Also check out the TeeWiki: http://teewiki.info

77 Reply by Kottizen

  • Kottizen
  • Kottizen
  • Administrator
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

A good example of a server with active admins is the Lost/XYZ. I spend much of my time there, idling and just checking for aimbots. To help the admins on that server, we have a aimbot-detecting-script, and it's really good.

Maybe it's something all Instagib-servers need?

78 Reply by Azon

  • Azon
  • Azon
  • Member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

When looking at that Lost XYZ server it's indeed true that such relative simple but effective solution like an detection-script might me the best passive solution, while good moderation is by far the best active one. A good combination of these would bring most non-programming aimbotters to their knees. If we can promote such basic maintenance on all servers this problem might not be as big as it seems to be. The moderation would require some goodwill and responsibility which we probably can't really increase except by giving information and explaining why it's necessary. But some kind of really simple script could and should be supplied with the official release. Yes, anyone who understands the code can look into it and bypass it, but only those that know how to program / develop a bot will do this. But 80% of the aimbots seems to have just found the bot somewhere on the internet, realized that it could balance their lack of real skills and started to use one. If these people are taken out they won't know or care how to bypass the protection.

79 Reply by torch

  • torch
  • torch
  • Member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

I have an idea which I originally intended for the vanilla game, but seeing as how mush you struggle with the administering i will present it. My idea is that since most servers have only 1-2 admins, and they are not always online its really hard to keep a high level of moderating the game. If you have people you trust among the regular players of your server you could give them rcon access but it is not really secure as they can pass on the information or misuse their powers. Therefore introducing a level of moderating the game between the player and admin level - a third console for game-masters/moderators whatever. My idea is like that - the admin creates a seperate config file containing the actions that the gm's can do, for example:
change the sv_spectators between 12 and 10 (imagine switching between 2v2 ctf1 and 3v3 ctf3) but not less or more
force votes, kick or ban players, change maps
The admin would decide how much control he gives to gm's and he could give that password to people he trusts, for example every hi-level clan regularly playing on your server gets it. Then when there is some trouble - teamkilling, spamming, botting theres a much bigger chance an authorized person is there and can help the situation. Or you can even search for some memebers of those gm allowed clans and ask them to clean up the mess. Ofcourse gm's and admins should not be kicked (whitelist and/or automatic deny of kicking rcon authed persons). I think the whole problem with illiterate players is not worth givng so much attention, because you cannot do too much against childish behaviour, and the same or worse could happen when such an account gets into the wrong hands, but the key point is that the gm account is below rcons, so an admin can kick/ban a gm, while a gm cant mess with the admin. Maybe this soultion would not work for all people, but for those who really want to keep order on their servers it could help develop something as a trusted network when a small amount of server admins decide to give each other gm access to their servers etc.

We will meet again when the flowers spread their glorious scent of victory and the birds sing us the melody of justice...

80 Reply by Tom94 (edited by Tom94 2009-07-29 11:01:21)

  • Tom94
  • Tom94
  • Member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

torch wrote:

I have an idea which I originally intended for the vanilla game, but seeing as how mush you struggle with the administering i will present it. My idea is that since most servers have only 1-2 admins, and they are not always online its really hard to keep a high level of moderating the game. If you have people you trust among the regular players of your server you could give them rcon access but it is not really secure as they can pass on the information or misuse their powers. Therefore introducing a level of moderating the game between the player and admin level - a third console for game-masters/moderators whatever. My idea is like that - the admin creates a seperate config file containing the actions that the gm's can do, for example:
change the sv_spectators between 12 and 10 (imagine switching between 2v2 ctf1 and 3v3 ctf3) but not less or more
force votes, kick or ban players, change maps
The admin would decide how much control he gives to gm's and he could give that password to people he trusts, for example every hi-level clan regularly playing on your server gets it. Then when there is some trouble - teamkilling, spamming, botting theres a much bigger chance an authorized person is there and can help the situation. Or you can even search for some memebers of those gm allowed clans and ask them to clean up the mess. Ofcourse gm's and admins should not be kicked (whitelist and/or automatic deny of kicking rcon authed persons). I think the whole problem with illiterate players is not worth givng so much attention, because you cannot do too much against childish behaviour, and the same or worse could happen when such an account gets into the wrong hands, but the key point is that the gm account is below rcons, so an admin can kick/ban a gm, while a gm cant mess with the admin. Maybe this soultion would not work for all people, but for those who really want to keep order on their servers it could help develop something as a trusted network when a small amount of server admins decide to give each other gm access to their servers etc.

http://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4358
Get a close look at the 'referee' feature. wink

Anyways, as I said before, and as you just do, this system is really working if the server admin bothers to give some trustable people the referee (or how you called it: gm) access.

It works pretty fine on my Lvl|x servers and also on ym freeze servers id did a great job.
As i mentioned before: the features to fight aimbotters already exist, use them! wink

Still, i have to agree with the antibot script aswell.
But only partially, because there always ia a chance that the script kicks pure people aswell.
(Though, its dependant on the quality of the script.)

~{MonkeyStyle}~ - Instagib Teeworlds Clan
VISIT US: http://monkeystyle.xooit.com/
Check out our IRC channel: #monkeystyle on QuakeNet || Also check out the TeeWiki: http://teewiki.info

81 Reply by Affe_mit_Waffe

  • Affe_mit_Waffe
  • New member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

hmm you forget again that its no problem to change youre IP,
I was 12 houres online every day on my server but in the end i gave up because i could'nt fight the botter.

You cant ban ppl without an "ID"  or something they cant change,
THAT is the ONLY PROBLEM.
Not that u dont have admins or something like this even the anti-botter skript cant do anything about ppl changing thair IP.

plz if u want to think about a solution think about this.

atm i try to code some system for a serverside mod to give ppl an uniqe ID and PW without recompiling the server every time,
then the solution would be a masterserver where ppl can register und the server could ask the masterserver if this person is banned.

the problem is im not a coder so it will take some time for me to do this.

i think this is the only way because u find cheats and hacks for every singel game u can play online,
and even big companys like EA or Blizzard know they cant do anything if ppl change thair ip so they dont even try and set a account infront of thair servers.

think about it!

|Affe mit Waffe|

82 Reply by Tom94

  • Tom94
  • Tom94
  • Member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

Even if they change their ip over and over again...
If you have active moderators and not do the work alone, the hacker has no chance. He comes and gets banned as soon as he starts to bot...

It really works and i doubt you tried that method. tongue
After 7 years of fighting stupid hackers in quake 3 i kinda know what i am talking about...
And really, active moderation will keep the server clean. smile

I can really understand that you alone couldn't do it, but what if there are 20 people who can fight botters?

~{MonkeyStyle}~ - Instagib Teeworlds Clan
VISIT US: http://monkeystyle.xooit.com/
Check out our IRC channel: #monkeystyle on QuakeNet || Also check out the TeeWiki: http://teewiki.info

83 Reply by Slayer *gV*

  • Slayer *gV*
  • Slayer *gV*
  • Support Staff
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

I can really understand that you alone couldn't do it, but what if there are 20 people who can fight botters?

but if you have 20 ppl you dont know if they use the rcon pw in  a right way. maybe they use it to ban other players, just for fun, without reason....

[MOD] Domination   ||   [MOD] iVampire   ||   [MOD] Streamer
[MAP] Slayer's maps (fly)

84 Reply by Affe_mit_Waffe

  • Affe_mit_Waffe
  • New member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

the problem is not if the botter understand that they should go away

a problem is if there is 1 asshole that wants do destroy ure server i kicked him 3 days every 1 or 2 minutes before i gave up u cant do anything if they dont let u.

i could show u if u want im faster with reconnecting than u will be with banning me

u can fight ppl that want to play with thair aimbot but not ppl that want to show u that u have no chance what could 20 ppl do about this?

85 Reply by Tom94

  • Tom94
  • Tom94
  • Member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

Affe_mit_Waffe wrote:

the problem is not if the botter understand that they should go away

a problem is if there is 1 asshole that wants do destroy ure server i kicked him 3 days every 1 or 2 minutes before i gave up u cant do anything if they dont let u.

i could show u if u want im faster with reconnecting than u will be with banning me

u can fight ppl that want to play with thair aimbot but not ppl that want to show u that u have no chance what could 20 ppl do about this?

Always have one person here to ban him.
I guess reconnecting his router will get annoying to him aswell after some time.
Reconnecting often even comes with delays till you can use the internet again...
Anyways, it depends and i have to admit: I never actually had ti fight such a person


Zeratul wrote:

I can really understand that you alone couldn't do it, but what if there are 20 people who can fight botters?

but if you have 20 ppl you dont know if they use the rcon pw in  a right way. maybe they use it to ban other players, just for fun, without reason....

Just for your case, he had a reason (i checked the server logs)

~{MonkeyStyle}~ - Instagib Teeworlds Clan
VISIT US: http://monkeystyle.xooit.com/
Check out our IRC channel: #monkeystyle on QuakeNet || Also check out the TeeWiki: http://teewiki.info

86 Reply by Slayer *gV*

  • Slayer *gV*
  • Slayer *gV*
  • Support Staff
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

I never actually had ti fight such a person

as long i play on these server i only saw one botter and he got kicked....

Just for your case, he had a reason (i checked the server logs)

aha cmon

[MOD] Domination   ||   [MOD] iVampire   ||   [MOD] Streamer
[MAP] Slayer's maps (fly)

87 Reply by Hnit (edited by Hnit 2009-08-03 11:34:15)

  • Hnit
  • New member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

Hellow,

maybe I'm crazy ( xD nice start), but TeeWorld is opensource why aimbots are not ? let me explain smile

I'm not a botter, but the only fun you get is to be easily the strongest (I think Oo) ,
but if aimbots are open-source and accessible by everybody, then the fun might decrease quickly since anyone can be as strong as you.

As shown in the official thread, it's really easy to get an aimbot, if someone really wants to cheat he can do it, but he'll be expose to virus etc... No more problems of this kind with opensource aimbots ! smile (war against virus is even more important)


Moreover, real bot programmers want to make the best bots ?
won't it be very interesting for them to chalenge their own bots against others bots ? (Machines' battle! ]8) )


Résumé :

pros :
+ no viruses
+ no fun since it become even more easy to get one
+ officials bot-tournaments
+ war against aimbots is already lost and might force us to have non-opensource programs to play sad

cons :
- find somes please but not too much xD


ps : sorry for my english ^^

88 Reply by Azon

  • Azon
  • Azon
  • Member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

Where you place the priority of the battle against viruses above that of botters, many tend to disagree. Virus are evil things but can be guarded against. If there are infected aimbots out there it's not our responsibility to protect people against these, our job is to make people not use bots. We tell people not to use bots, and if they would listen they should never have any problem with any possible virus. If they tend to ignore our valid opinion any trouble they might run into (including an occasional virus) is for their own responsibility.

Although you post one side of the story, there's no guarantee that these official, open-source released bots would be used for "bot-tournaments" . Time after time the average botter proves to be an immature player who can't stand that there are better players then him and who results to unfair manners to win and get some kind of attention. They won't use the bot for the things it's meant to be used, but instead use it to damage the community.

It's wrong to assert that the "war on aimbots" is lost in the sense that there's nothing to improve the current situation. There are many valid anti-aimbot tools who, with some help of a human controller, can keep a server pretty clean. Although it's unsure whether this will become the standard on all servers, there's certainly room for improvement.

Developers have said before that the current vision is that Teeworlds should not support any project related to aimbots or AI controlled bots, as the risk is too great. Teeworlds original setup was to be a multiplayer game which focuses on gameplay against human opponents. Both from a technical and ethical view it would be impossible to support these developments without a massive investment of time and resources. Currently there are other things which have much more priority among the developers. Maybe at some point in the future it would be possible to rethink our strategy on this hot issue but at the moment it isn't one of the possibilities.

89 Reply by Pepperoni

  • Pepperoni
  • Pepperoni
  • Member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

@Hnit:

This will ruin the game for the people that like to play teeworlds without bot. Once bots are open source there will be a battle of machines, like you said. But this isn't at all what most players want. We want battles of manual players against manual players.
I will never use a bot, and I am sure a lot of players agree with me about this.

Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference.

90 Reply by Hnit

  • Hnit
  • New member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

thx for the replies smile

@Pepperoni
"I will never use a bot, and I am sure a lot of players agree with me about this"
>>> I agree with you, By Open-bot  I didn't mean that's people should use bots big_smile (I really hate cheaters)


"Once bots are open source there will be a battle of machines, like you said"
>> yeah that's would be fun , BUT only on dedicated servers for bots 


@Azon

"... is for their own responsibility. "
>>> I agree that's is not the responasbility of TeeWorld to protect the players from viruses (or from their immaturity xD). Viruses (etc...) are a big pains, it won't hurt to reduce a little their preys wink

"Although you post one side of the story, ... but instead use it to damage the community."
>>> yup that's a minus for opensource bots, but it's also there's no guaranty it'll turn like this too xD
>>> If someone really want's to cheat with an aimbot , he'll be able to do it (cf google or this forum's official topic about aimbots)

"It's wrong to assert that the ... there's certainly room for improvement. "
>>> maybe I went too far xD, but it'll be very hard and time expensive to fight against bots.
>>> No one did win this kind of war, for example : drm, cracks etc...




If I were a aimbot programmer, I'll be more interested in developping opensource aimbot than those who are running and have no feedbacks on them. And if aimbot programmer develop official aimbots, then there is NO interest for them to develop non-official ones, don't you think ?

I'm sure, it's a real challenge to develop a very good aimbot. And there is a real oportunity to fun with tournaments botsVSbots (only)

"Maybe at some point in the future it would be possible to rethink our strategy on this hot issue but at the moment it isn't one of the possibilities."
>>> I wish for a great future for TeeWorld smile

91 Reply by Pepperoni

  • Pepperoni
  • Pepperoni
  • Member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

Hnit wrote:

maybe I went too far xD, but it'll be very hard and time expensive to fight against bots.
No one did win this kind of war, for example : drm, cracks etc...

The best thing to do is once again just play on respectable servers where there is an option to contact an admin in IRC or some other way.

Hnit wrote:

I will never use a bot, and I am sure a lot of players agree with me about this
>>> I agree with you, By Open-bot  I didn't mean that's people should use bots big_smile (I really hate cheaters)

You do realize that there is a contradiction in this sentence right?  It's like saying I hate people who murder other people but let's give them guns smile

Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference.

92 Reply by Hnit (edited by Hnit 2009-08-03 14:19:07)

  • Hnit
  • New member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

Pepperoni wrote:

You do realize that there is a contradiction in this sentence right?  It's like saying I hate people who murder other people but let's give them guns smile

(yeah found quotes)

I said I'm crazy xD
Seriously, to continue your example, guns are lethal, but official contest with guns exists, cars are lethal but drive race exists too

It's better to have little control on aimbots than none, I think smile

I'm not saying that people should use aimbot, but to control aimbots (opensource) instead of trying to eradicate them (which is really hard)

93 Reply by Pepperoni

  • Pepperoni
  • Pepperoni
  • Member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

Hnit wrote:

Seriously, to continue your example, guns are lethal, but official contest with guns exists, cars are lethal but drive race exists too

To continue my example..
murdering people = using aimbot in illegal servers
official contest with guns = special servers where aimbot is allowed.

So in your eyes we should give everybody guns because there are occasions where it is allowed to use them? Even if we don't know if that person will/will not murder anybody?

{There are people who can't control their urge to ("murder")/ use aimbot in real servers where it won't be allowed. Therefor the eradication still need to excist for people that do not want aimbots in their servers. To be honest it will be even harder bacause there will be more people that have aimbot.}

Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference.

94 Reply by Hnit

  • Hnit
  • New member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

In most cases people don't use aimbots.

Those who want to use aimbot can already do it, so I don't think it will change a lot.

Q : but if aimbots are easy to get people might want to use them (cheat) more often ?
I guess the anwser is not that easy :

aimbot easy to get, so easy to cheat, so many cheaters ?
if there is many cheaters, where's the fun to cheat ?

Well, I don't think a cheater will find a real fun always playing with an aimbot and might stoping cheating

maybe a real cheater can explain to use where's the fun to cheat xD

95 Reply by Pepperoni

  • Pepperoni
  • Pepperoni
  • Member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

Hnit: So now your argument is we should give everyone guns, just because if they wanted to, they could get one easily.
And the murderers can murder easily so the fun goes away smile.

ofcourse the comparison isn't perfect, but in fact it is kind of what you are saying.

In my opinion allowing links to websites with aimbots will never be oke. If people want to have aimbot wars they can make a server just as we speak already and do so.
Ecspecially when you are saying that an aimbot is easily found.

But for now if there is one thing I and the other moderators will not be allowing is aimbots anytime soon.

Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference.

96 Reply by Hnit

  • Hnit
  • New member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

( the gun comparison has its limits, murderers don't kill for fun Oo (etc...) )

But for now if there is one thing I and the other moderators will not be allowing is aimbots anytime soon.

I agree with you, that's aimbots are not ok with normal servers (with human players),  and must not be allowed on these servers.

The problem is that aimbot doesn't not only meant cheat, it can be a real chalenge as a programmer to make aimbots, or bots tournaments (kind of IA tournament, IA so much fun smile )

If people want to have aimbot wars they can make a server just as we speak already and do so.

Yes it is, but will remain limited because aimbots are only considered as cheating tools
so anyone who want to make an aimbot (to participate in bots tournament) won't find easily help/community or already made work to start his work

97 Reply by Pepperoni

  • Pepperoni
  • Pepperoni
  • Member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

Hnit wrote:

Yes it is, but will remain limited because aimbots are only considered as cheating tools so anyone who want to make an aimbot (to participate in bots tournament) won't find easily help/community or already made work to start his work

But this is exactly what the non-cheating community wants... So why change something now? We want to keep the aimbot users limited and we want them to feel like cheaters because it is not allowed in Teeworlds.

Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference.

98 Reply by Affe_mit_Waffe

  • Affe_mit_Waffe
  • New member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

why the **** do you delete my post?
was was wrong with it?
if some of the admins want to tell me something they should talk maybe not just delete posts -.-

99 Reply by Azon

  • Azon
  • Azon
  • Member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

Please understand that we only delete posts which we deem unsuitable for the forum or an interruption to the topic. If we had to personally contact every single poster about these posts we would have an extra day work just for that.

There's a very slight chance that your post might have been deleted by accident, and although unlikely, this is something we want to prevent. Therefor, if you disagree with our actions, you are hereby free to re-instate your post, and a second review will determine if there's any problem with it.

100 Reply by Korgo

  • Korgo
  • Member
  • Offline

Re: Official Aimbot Discussion

What about set a "page" with person who at all never use aimbot and never will, it will be like contract.
It will have 2 lvls.
Longer lasting here and newbies.
In servers admins will do one special spect place where will you can get by rcon (http://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4358 this might by useable) with able:
at lvl longer last kick
and at newbie vote kick (that vote is about non-vote servers)
but just it need fairly take peoples to that "page" just only serious people and refresh it alot.
Might it can be page in forum what can do one moderator only repair etc...