[COMMUNITY] Open letter from ~{MS}~ on MTC, instagib and the future (Page 1 of 4)

IMO, a fun game is a game which is complex and a fun multiplayer game is a game which is competitive. Every game is boring at a certain point, but for me the more complex it is, the less boring it will be (well too complex is boring too :>).

Of course games like tic-tac-toe are fun, but only at school for 10 min... I think teeworlds is competitive because of :
      - the weapons
      - the items (hearts, shields)
      - the movements (hook, double jump)
      That's why I personaly like teeworlds.
       
So as I think a good game is a competitive, I dislike instagib.

I have to admit that it could be a fun mod, but not a competitive mod. And MTC instagib proves it. I have nothing against Hiryuu, he did a great job. But in my opinion, the games that I saw and played (styx against MS and Z against 6d7n) were really boring. Instagib is repetitive and not really fun to watch (I would like to hear the opinion of Golvmopp about that).

Why it is boring (imo) :
      - always the same thing even while attacking (in regular defending is already a bit boring for me, so in instagib...)
      - no weapon skill : you only need to aim and shoot (look the pistol, the gl, the shotgun, it is not that easy ; it requires some practice and more than the ability to aim at the enemies)
      - no pickups, so less tactical
      - one shot = one kill => you die to quickly, not really fun to watch
      - less tactical so the games could be too long (like the first round styx against MS, at first it was really tight [then we sucked :>]), Hiryuu had to set the scorelimit to 300... It wasn't his fault, it was instagib fault imo.

The other thing that sucks in instagib is the bounce. It is too rando. It is a good idea, but is it normal that I kill someone with a shot that I missed ?

I am not saying that instagib is a total failure, there is some skill and teamplay. But it makes me laugh when I compare it to regular teeworlds :>

So instagib is making teeworlds easier. It is easier to kill someone, easier to play because you don't care of weapons or items, or ammos. And imo, right now instagib isn't ready for competitions. As I said to Eve, you (the instagib community) have to change this mod to make it competitive for competitions. So the games won't be games of 40 min. So the games will be fun to watch.

Maybe that's because Somerunce isn't an instagib player himself? How is he going to comment on instagib not knowing much about the instagib player's experience? If I were to comment on the games, I'd show them the way an instagib player sees it. "Nice move", "great trick". That's because instagib is more focused on details, like movement and quick planning. Nobody's going to comment on instagib better than an instagib player, and I bet there's somebody who can show you what fun is there to see. If you ever want to see.

So what? This is instagib. You can play it or not. Nobody's expecting us to own at vanilla, and it's Styx who wanted to challenge us. They lost, we won, that's all. We're not here to fight with vanilla but to show that we're here. We don't care if we would own at vanilla, and we don't care if Styx or POLICE would own at insta. It doesn't matter, seriously. We just want to show our presence in the community.

There are no attempts, there are only facts. If you don't consider instagib challenging, then play against MS. If somebody thinks that instagib is not challenging, then they should try to pwn at it. It's not that easy, because first you have to be open-minded, which is hard if you're a Camptain AMN.

@ o10 :
All the things you mention (movements, prediction...) are in vanilla. In a 1on1 vanilla game on dm1 there is a lot of prediction (too much maybe ) and movements are a bit better than only hook the ground and jump...

About the bounce : that's why I think the bounce should be activated only on purpose.

My mommy told me not to feed the trolls, and I didn't want to, but I'll bite.

First let me start by saying I have nothing against instagib players -- and they can play whatever they want to play, it's their time. But frankly, I don't see the point of this "open letter" other than to start a useless flamewar.

If I follow correctly the chain of thoughts (please correct me if I'm wrong), the whole argument is that MTC was a 'proof' that Instagib is a valid gametype (I'll pass the parts specific to MS which really read like self-patting on the back).

Here, I don't see how MTC would prove that, the simple fact that Instagib exists and has the following we know show that it is a valid gametype .

Now I don't believe anyone said anything against that -- so this is quite the empty statement.

Another thing I read in the open letter is that MS asks, in the name of pro-instagibers, respect from the rest of the community, more specifically the vanilla players who discard Instagib as skillless.

Obviously the argument on respect only matters regarding to whether or not there is skill in Instagib, and how the game type compares to vanilla; because I'm sure no one holds anything against a player only because he plays Instagib.

Like Ubuntu and AMN, I can't prevent a smile when comparing the challenges of vanilla and instagib. The fact is Instagib is a strict subset of vanilla -- all moves, all techniques and all skill existing in vanilla exists in Instagib. The main difference in aspect is the "one shot, one kill" which changes the dynamics of the game and thus the strategies (by a fair margin) and the degree of teamplay affecting outcome the game (very slightly).

In one sense, this open letter is fun because we obviously have very different interpretations of the games that happened at the MTC, regardless of the outcome.

I like vanilla CTF because to win, you need teamplay, of course, but mostly it is about variation in the strategies and feints. Always using the same attack factor won't bring you anywhere. You need effective diversions and cooperation to bring the flag back.

Unfortunately, there is one thing differentiating us that prevent this debate from going far -- and that is that we know the layout of pro CTF games, and the layout of pro iCTF games, while you obviously don't know much about pro CTF games. The 'proof', here again, is that you thought the most common situation in CTF is that both teams get the flag. This is actually a rare event in clanwars (just as rare as in Instagib), and it happens mostly on low-level public games.

In my mind, most iCTF games are high level (compared to the general level of iCTF), compared to most CTF games (because a lot of beginners and lower-level players are in regular CTF, and because the vanilla skill span is a lot, lot wider).

Let's go back to iCTF and skill. I do agree there is skill in iCTF -- and I think everyone agree. When people say there is "no skill", they implicitly mean "no skill compared to regular CTF" -- and if you hold the comparison, it's merely a fact.

You say that in iCTF you try to be really careful not to be hit by enemy shots -- yet those shots are mostly from straight lines (or bounces whose angles can be deducted). In regular CTF, there is also the laser, but you also have to care for the grenades, for the pistol shots and from shotgun bullets (and a lot, lot more from the hook). More vectors of attack mean having movements more complex, because they have to be at the same time quick, unpredictable and provide *mobility* for just in time grenade dodging.. All that while yourself shooting with a lot of weapons, which allow an almost always-fire combination through cutting cooldowns by switching weapons.

You say that CTF players switch to the grenade launcher when they get the laser rifle. Obviously they do, since the laser rifle is a rare while the grenade launcher is a commodity; that no weapon is adapted to all situations. The default weapon of most regular players is the grenade launcher because it allows to block enemies around you, it forces them to be careful and cuts their speed either through hits or forced dodging. A lot of players also default to pistol for ammo regen and as a "radar" for enemies far outside the screen.

The complexity of vanilla CTF outshines iCTF by every single factor.

Now let's move to what made that MS won, and why some instagibers are better than other. First, playing only instagib have instagibers used to very specific moves that only take into account the laser rifle as a mean of death, meaning that their movements are optimized and totally ignore the threat of other weapons. Regular players have other habits, habits to have moves that give them a much better average successful dodge in a situation with all weapons. Now, this is normal that the instagibers would be better at that, and one could argue that any player in instagib just has to accommodate with that factor. I have no problem with that.

However, the true lesson I got from the MTC iCTF, the true result, in my mind, is simply: iCTF games are won out of stubbornness rather than outstanding skill. Of course, a lot of clans in the MTC iCTF were totally skillful regarding the skill subset of iCTF. The teamplay of some teams (namely MS) was very impressive as it is a quality that is lacking in most teams, whether they are CTF or iCTF teams.

But the true winning factor was stubbornness, willing to win at all costs. Taking the flag and scoring was more a question of persistence and waiting for the opponent defense to lack of concentration, than actually out of smart tactics, attack moves. This is what regular CTF is about: best attackers aren't just dully attacking over and over, they are trying to create a weakness at a given time and exploit it. And once they get the flag, it's not only about rushing (though I'll admit that teamplay plays a big part in bringing the flag back in Instagib too). In vanilla CTF, a smart flag carrier is a player who knows how to fool the defense at a level incomparable to iCTF.

Once again, I am talking about the mod itself, iCTF. Not about the players. They just demonstrate what I'm saying. Let's see duv or tho as examples of perseverance -- they both are very skillful but they take the flag when there is a concentration mistake in the other team, not because of the originality of a move. I guess this is all fine and dandy for two instagib clans who know what they're in for, that is, a game that might last 2 hours if you fight for each inch of territory. Unfortunately, against vanilla players like me who play for the beauty of the move (the "art of Teeworlds" as Golvmopp said ), it's only pure boredom. The repetitiveness of Instagib is killing much more than enemy shots. Winning out of desperation and lack of fun isn't the most glorious style.

So I'll join Ubuntu here: while iCTF is easy fun, distracting, good aim training on public games, it is simply not meant as a competitive game. It is a profoundly unbalanced game where defense has too much advantages, since all players have the same life, weapon at spawn, whether they are on attack or just spawned. You kill 5 players on the way to the flag only to find them on you when you finally get it. If it is ever to be a competitive game, it has to be changed by the Instagib community (personally I think that there isn't much to do as the fundamental concept seems flawed game design).

Well, this is a very lengthy post but at least it is done, and I can simply give the URL the next time people ask me about my mind on Instagib .

On a side note, I'll congratulate MS on only one thing because that's the only really outstanding skill they have (everybody can move, shoot and want to win so much that they are stubborn enough to play 40mins games with 300 scorelimit): they have a really good teamplay and that can be achieved only with a mature team of experienced players who understand the dynamics of the game and really try to improve and that's something great.

So my two conclusions for the MTC iCTF are:
- Instagib is fun in DM/TDM but not skillfull. iCTF is not competitive because it is profoundly unbalanced and flawed, and the endgame is more "who will last longer" than "who is better". No, sorry, that level of mindless concentration is not part of skill in my book.
- MonkeyStyle is one of the rare clans with real teamplay in Teeworlds, and it is indeed sad that they limit themselves to iCTF while they obviously don't know regular CTF more than mid-level, public games. Well, tastes are very personal, but I can't help to think they just don't want to challenge themselves and risk going back to being the underdogs .

And if you reply and quote me, be sure to quote the full context. Thanks.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot one thing. I think the gametype filter solved the problems with vanilla being overrun by CTF, so I have strictly no problem with Instagib and I believe it's the same for others. We still have to wait a bit for all people to move from 0.4 but the future looks bright. Actually I'm wondering if it's not instagib which is in the worse shape now . So I guess everyone off to their old ways, so long, and thanks for the fish .

@Magnet:

You say that instagib skill is incomparable to vanilla skill. And I agree. Again, what we've all already learned in our discussion is that comparing vanilla and insta is like comparing hamburgers and hot-dogs. There is no way of comparing the two kinds of skill. But I'll not agree to deem the vanilla skill as better than insta. I watched a demo from our game against Styx and analyzed your attacker's movements. And many times I made huge eyes and said: "What is he doing?I would do something totally different". But that doesn't matter, since you guys don't play insta, so it's understandable. You'd say the same if I played vanilla.The fact that the game of MS vs Styx was so balanced and long proves that you all are great and multi-skilled players. And...

You say that the main factor of winning  an iCTF game is stubbornness and repeating the same dull moves over and over. The fact that MS won this game wasn't because we were stubborn. The factor of creating a weakness and using smart tactics is present too. The example could be that in the second round I switched with Eve, attacked and captured the first flag. That wasn't just bare luck. And in a situation where two teams are giving their best and using smart tactics and moves, the game is bound to be long and balanced. We were totally focused on finding your weaknesses, and there were some that we exploited. The fact that it took so long only proves that you were a challenging oponent. An instagib player watching our game would see the various moves and tactics that we used in attack. They were ineffective because you were a very good team. It just goes both ways. And because the game is in 2D and linear, there are not many ways of varying the tactics, especially on CTF2.

You say that capturing a flag is more a question of defense's mistakes than of attacker's movs. I can't agree here. See, stating something like this puts instagib in a "shoot-kill" category, while there is a lot more to that. I've seen some really original and effective moves in the games we've played. There were a lot of them in the Styx's gameplay. You don't see it, because you're not an instagib player, so again you are more focused on the "what" of the game, not on the "how". And because you were a very good team, our best moves and attempts were really challenged. Perseverance is a part of instagib, because you have to take into account that you'll die in a couple of seconds. So yeah, sometimes it's like trying to break a wall with your head. But the true art of winning in iCTF comes from complex moves and tactics which go so quickly that they're almost primal. As an insta player I saw that you lacked that and that's why we won, but I admit the game against Styx was the hardest in all the MTC. Vanilla players just can't see our perspective if they don't play insta, they will only see perseverance and stubbornness. But as an insta player I can guarantee that I know what moves and tactics make one team pwn the other. I could show you, but you'll have to sit with me and watch the demo. When getting from one side of the map to the other becomes a real challenge, it's not about capturing the flag anymore, it's about the small aims that we achieve on the road to the flag, and this is the beauty of instagib that we enjoy most.

...So you have to take it into account and take the other way to walk them around. Or try to do a kamikaze and kill everything on your way back. All in all, on your way back to the base you have to do thousands of complicated moves and distract your opponents, because if not, you'll die.

See, again this is the reduction of instagib to a "shoot-kill" category. And if you don't play insta, you'll never see anything more than shooting and moving. But anyway, thanks for appreciating our teamplay.

You say that we don't want to challenge ourselves and risk being the underdogs in vanilla. Actually, before the clan came into life, we were all vanilla players who owned on public servers. We weren't the underdogs at all. We chose instagib and that's our way right now. We just prefer it over vanilla, that's all. We don't need to prove anything, we're certain that we would get owned in vanilla, but who cares? We could say the same about vanilla players, that they don't want to challenge themselves in insta, that they don't wanna be the underdogs etc. But we don't, because you play what you like and we don't care. We just wanna be seen and accepted as the other gametype, equal to vanilla, with the same rights. We don't wanna be seen as the "plague" that is destroying the community, because we're all nice guys. And if anybody chooses vanilla instead of insta, that's really okay. If anybody chooses insta, that's okay. Nobody is here to destroy the community.

As to the gametype filter that balanced the two forces: I agree, it's all more balanced now, and choosing instagib is now more a question of preference than of "being a noob and wanting to pwn". This is certainly helping us in gaining the respect we deserve, because now it's not so noobish, only the players that like insta more will play it.

As to instagib being in worse shape now - that's true. After the changes we lack a lot of players. The best players, the ones that created a big part of insta-community, are still in 0.4.3. We're in worse shape after the update, and we're afraid that vanilla wants to destroy insta. That's why we stood up and that's why we're trying to make things work for us. But despite all that, the future looks bright, and I hope we'll be able to live among vanilla players just like normal citizens who have their own ways. And if anybody doesn't understand the insta way of playing, we'd love to show them what fun we have to offer.

soa 1. WHY at the first post O.o
instantgib is a mod like war3 like run like race like boming and all the other things
some people like it and some doesnt
i play instantgib some times and SOMETIMES it makes fun not to think and just shoot ( i suck at iCTF)
and you made a great job at the tournament
BUT ROFL WTH YOU MAKE SUCH A BIG THING OUT OF IT
JUST PLAY THE DAMN GAME
all the talking about respect and so on
everybody shoudl respect everyone but why do you hink that your so special because you play ictf
does the run people start crying because teetv dont stream them
or the sports people
the just play the game and have some fun so should you

i will never try to be good as ictf because i just dont like the fact of one weapon i miss to change weapons while fighting some one
that are things i love of tw and ictf put them away
and now you want to say that it offers fun --- not for me
but i would never force you or someone to play vanilla O.o

First, I must say that I havn't read all your posts because some of them are really really long =_=
I'm agree with the players who find instagib really boring and I don't like instangib too but I think it is as competitiv as regular mods in a certain way and that's why I accepted a cup for MTC.

But as you saw during the tournament, there is a huge problem when 2 teams are more or less at the same level : a 500 points game can take more than 1 hour ! Why ? Because it's really easy to protect your flag ! When a enemy kill you in your base you instantly repop near him and with the instagib weapon. It's just impossible to take the flag if more than 3 good instagib players protect it. It work with the normal mod because a player who repop need to find weapons and shields. Besides it's more difficult to catch the flag carrier.

So, the question is : how can we solve the problem ?
As I said during the cup, I think that this mod need one little modification : the respawn time . If the respawn was set at 5 second then it would be difficult to protect the flag and the game would be a lot more interesting. I hope that a command like "respawn_time x" will be add because I really think that it's important for instagib and other mods.

To conclude I want to say that, even with all the problems we add, I think that it was a nice instagib tournament. Again, congratulation MS for your victory. I will make a new topic soon to talk about a big change that I want to make about the MTC so if some people want that MTC continue and become bigger wait for it because I really need some motivated guy to help me.

I thought about that, and even make it variable depending on your distance to the flag (die after middle: instant respawn, die in your base: 5s respawn. In middle: 5s/relative position). The problem is that no one wants to wait to respawn. This is boring to wait for a 3s respawn when using the selfkill, so really I'm not sure. That would be better than nothing but I'm sure a lot of players would hate it.

There is no good solution, that's why I said I think it's impossible. The instagib community should decide what they want to do, they are the only ones concerned about it. Whatever happens, I'll add that the MTC showed me what iCTF is when played seriously and at high levels and I simply did not like it also because of the lack of diversity (I really miss other weapons), so I will only play the mod on public games for relaxation when I don't want to play seriously.

Could you email me in order to get in touch and then trying to share me a nice vanilla clanwar demo? I really wanna see what it is. No jokes here, just real interest, as my only point of view is vanilla publics, which, as you said, often result in two caps in a time. Thanks!

No problem!

I have tons of cool demos at home. Get in touch on IRC I'll send you one tonight.
(Unfortunately not all demos are perfect games either ).

TO SOMERUNCE : I am currently working on it (in my mind). As I said, I had some inputs from Magnet and Ubuntu, and I'm thinking hard (hard for me...) about it. I'll make some proposals to you soon, if you allow me to.

TO STYX AND MS : I think that if we could meet on irc (those who want to, ofc, I don't want this to be a fight ), we could discuss about thos improvements. I think that vanilla players advices can be really useful here. What do you guys think?

Considering you all come with the instagib skill, learning regular should be a lot faster than for most players. I think you could all become "high-level" in regular in about 2 weeks. Once again, as I said, the skillspan in regular is enormous, there's midlevel, high-level, and ultimate . And borderlines (between midlevel and highlevel). At higher points, the differences are very small but let's take a "pro" and a "high-level", they may look the same, the highlevel will die 80% of the time for a very slight differences and lack of experience.

I can give you pointers regarding weapon usage and ctf strategies, but at some point, it all boils down to game experience. I think MS are many (10?) so you could have internal practice with no pressure.

And I do play for fun too, I even have a real life (yeah, for realz). I play regular specifically because it is there the fun lies for me . Find me on IRC tonight, I'll find a good demo to send you then I can give you some pointers regarding the differences between regular and instagib gameplay.