51 Reply by JonastheRoman

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

@jxsl13: This would be bad on large maps, because when you want to start with the map, there are usually players near you, with whom you can play. If you limit the number to 16, this get's much less likely and you won't be able to start playing very often.

@Schwertspitze: I also think this is right. Why not allow counting more than 16 players?
For modes like Race or Survival it would still be good to "officially support" more players, I think. Or just leave it to the will of the map makers, why not?

Loving TW since 2010 smile

52 Reply by allu

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

Perhaps I should throw in my few cents as well.

1) Don't ban econ bots made with good spirit.

Some bots, like my TeeBot, mostly just parse econ console to keep stats, logs and print out announcements or chat messages based on that. Its meant give users some comic relief and fun and doesn't change any game mechanics.(Ever tried saying "!rick" on ChickenServer 2, 4 or 5?)

TeeBot allows writing plugins to it and I can't quarantee plugins made by others are all in the same spirit I've done the project, but TeeBot opens up possibilities ranging from Admin panels to control several servers to status pages listing different game statistics far more accurately then what you can get from masterservers all without a single line of modified code in Teeworlds, working from remote locations and on any vanilla server with econ enabled.

2) Instead of banning econ bots, Do some of following:
    1) Allow disabling chat&announcements from clientside
    2) If you must, make rules only for econ bots that modify gameplay and wont list themselves as MOD gametype, using MOD would also allow them server tuning.*
    3) Throw in some masterserver selection menu, make 1-3 masterservers with different rules, totally vanilla with no econ/rcon at all in 1(I mean, players can vote right?), allow econ bots in 2, and mods in 3rd, or similar setup, make it easy to add own masterservers(Masterserver for masterservers? tongue ).

* It is possible to make up new "gamemodes" with econ bot. Basically you can check for kill, move to spectator, reduce player count, and thus creating survival gameplay. You could disable teambalance, check for kill, move to killers side, and make conquer or capture gametype. List goes on. At the same time, these could be done by admin manually using few keybindings and with group of people who might play agreeing on the "rules" and new comer thinks its modded server.

Another question, what about Rcon bots? One could modify client to do exactly what econ bots do using rcon while they play, or even simply list killing sprees in chat, If I were to make one such bot, then leave my self afk on my own server, should the server be banned from masterserver if someone reports it? How long this has to happen? What if I go on some one elses server while they are gone and report myself in the server, will they get banned from master server? How can you know if the afker client is their own or someone elses?

BBCodes I'd like to see: [youtube]

53 Reply by heinrich5991

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

allu wrote:

Perhaps I should throw in my few cents as well.

1) Don't ban econ bots made with good spirit.

Some bots, like my TeeBot, mostly just parse econ console to keep stats, logs and print out announcements or chat messages based on that. Its meant give users some comic relief and fun and doesn't change any game mechanics.(Ever tried saying "!rick" on ChickenServer 2, 4 or 5?)

TeeBot allows writing plugins to it and I can't quarantee plugins made by others are all in the same spirit I've done the project, but TeeBot opens up possibilities ranging from Admin panels to control several servers to status pages listing different game statistics far more accurately then what you can get from masterservers all without a single line of modified code in Teeworlds, working from remote locations and on any vanilla server with econ enabled.

2) Instead of banning econ bots, Do some of following:
    1) Allow disabling chat&announcements from clientside
    2) If you must, make rules only for econ bots that modify gameplay and wont list themselves as MOD gametype, using MOD would also allow them server tuning.*
    3) Throw in some masterserver selection menu, make 1-3 masterservers with different rules, totally vanilla with no econ/rcon at all in 1(I mean, players can vote right?), allow econ bots in 2, and mods in 3rd, or similar setup, make it easy to add own masterservers(Masterserver for masterservers? tongue ).

* It is possible to make up new "gamemodes" with econ bot. Basically you can check for kill, move to spectator, reduce player count, and thus creating survival gameplay. You could disable teambalance, check for kill, move to killers side, and make conquer or capture gametype. List goes on. At the same time, these could be done by admin manually using few keybindings and with group of people who might play agreeing on the "rules" and new comer thinks its modded server.

Another question, what about Rcon bots? One could modify client to do exactly what econ bots do using rcon while they play, or even simply list killing sprees in chat, If I were to make one such bot, then leave my self afk on my own server, should the server be banned from masterserver if someone reports it? How long this has to happen? What if I go on some one elses server while they are gone and report myself in the server, will they get banned from master server? How can you know if the afker client is their own or someone elses?

My take on this is: It shouldn't modify the server, the implementation is irrelevant. The rules weren't set in place in order to circumvent them technically. If you absolutely want modified behavior, change one line in source to display your server as something else than DM/TDM/CTF, perhaps DM+/TDM+/CTF+.

My question is: Why should the user care how a server modification is implemented?

54 Reply by allu (edited by allu 2015-10-04 14:41:22)

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

heinrich5991 wrote:
allu wrote:

Perhaps I should throw in my few cents as well.

1) Don't ban econ bots made with good spirit.

Some bots, like my TeeBot, mostly just parse econ console to keep stats, logs and print out announcements or chat messages based on that. Its meant give users some comic relief and fun and doesn't change any game mechanics.(Ever tried saying "!rick" on ChickenServer 2, 4 or 5?)

TeeBot allows writing plugins to it and I can't quarantee plugins made by others are all in the same spirit I've done the project, but TeeBot opens up possibilities ranging from Admin panels to control several servers to status pages listing different game statistics far more accurately then what you can get from masterservers all without a single line of modified code in Teeworlds, working from remote locations and on any vanilla server with econ enabled.

2) Instead of banning econ bots, Do some of following:
    1) Allow disabling chat&announcements from clientside
    2) If you must, make rules only for econ bots that modify gameplay and wont list themselves as MOD gametype, using MOD would also allow them server tuning.*
    3) Throw in some masterserver selection menu, make 1-3 masterservers with different rules, totally vanilla with no econ/rcon at all in 1(I mean, players can vote right?), allow econ bots in 2, and mods in 3rd, or similar setup, make it easy to add own masterservers(Masterserver for masterservers? tongue ).

* It is possible to make up new "gamemodes" with econ bot. Basically you can check for kill, move to spectator, reduce player count, and thus creating survival gameplay. You could disable teambalance, check for kill, move to killers side, and make conquer or capture gametype. List goes on. At the same time, these could be done by admin manually using few keybindings and with group of people who might play agreeing on the "rules" and new comer thinks its modded server.

Another question, what about Rcon bots? One could modify client to do exactly what econ bots do using rcon while they play, or even simply list killing sprees in chat, If I were to make one such bot, then leave my self afk on my own server, should the server be banned from masterserver if someone reports it? How long this has to happen? What if I go on some one elses server while they are gone and report myself in the server, will they get banned from master server? How can you know if the afker client is their own or someone elses?

My take on this is: It shouldn't modify the server, the implementation is irrelevant. The rules weren't set in place in order to circumvent them technically. If you absolutely want modified behavior, change one line in source to display your server as something else than DM/TDM/CTF, perhaps DM+/TDM+/CTF+.

My question is: Why should the user care how a server modification is implemented?

My point is along lines "You cannot monitor it, you cannot confirm it, you cannot stop it. Not without removing econ, rcon and chat from the client."

So why make rules that are impossible to enforce or even confirm they are being breaked and could be abused to shutdown servers who have done nothing wrong? (Read my earlier post about client side rcon/chat bots.)

This is starting to remind me of the DMCA.

BBCodes I'd like to see: [youtube]

55 Reply by heinrich5991

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

allu wrote:

My point is along lines "You cannot monitor it, you cannot confirm it, you cannot stop it. Not without removing econ, rcon and chat from the client."

So why make rules that are impossible to enforce or even confirm they are being breaked and could be abused to shutdown servers who have done nothing wrong? (Read my earlier post about client side rcon/chat bots.)

This is starting to remind me of the DMCA.

I think we can try these rules out and see if they work. I'm quite confident it'll work out OK.

56 Reply by allu

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

So these rules mean I can move all TeeBot functionality that is possible, to client side mod, and have it on any X server where I'm not banned/kicked? Or will this rule state server owners are responsible of modded clients who join their server with the threath of ip ban from masterserver?

BBCodes I'd like to see: [youtube]

57 Reply by heinrich5991

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

allu wrote:

So these rules mean I can move all TeeBot functionality that is possible, to client side mod, and have it on any X server where I'm not banned/kicked? Or will this rule state server owners are responsible of modded clients who join their server with the threath of ip ban from masterserver?

To quote myself:

heinrich5991 wrote:

1. The player count must coincide with the number of actual players on the server, this means neither server-side bots nor permanent client-side bots are to be counted. Benefit of doubt is given to server owners in case of apparant client-side bots that might not be owned by them.

That means that unless there is reason to believe that the client bots are endorsed by the server owner, the server will receive no master server ban.

58 Reply by Schwertspize

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

so.... should afk players be on the player count or marked as "afk" in 0. 7 and excluded with the "only actual players" tick box in the server list?

Having troubles finding servers in the serverlist? Go to Pastebin (its a referer cause there is daily a new pastebin) and add the lines to your settings.cfg (in %APPDATA%\teeworlds). Then open teeworlds and go to the favorites tab. (Note however, standard teeworlds client can only show 256 favorites, use ddnet instead)

59 Reply by allu

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

I still think this is too hard to monitor/prevent and has little to no actual benefits.

If something has to be denied it should, where possible, be done by restricting it from the Vanilla server/client. Especially here where essentially nether chat or announcements are needed for gameplay, so I'd vote for making it possible to disable them on clients side just as you can mute annoying players or spammers you might encounter when you join a random server. Ofcourse there is the possibility to remove chat and announcements alltogether from Teeworlds.

Again I do think that any econ bot modifying the gameplay itself via moving of players in teams or such should list itself as "MOD" gametype. (Since the normal tw server doesn't support gamemode names outside DM,TDM,CTF and MOD afaik)

BBCodes I'd like to see: [youtube]

60 Reply by heinrich5991

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

Schwertspize wrote:

so.... should afk players be on the player count or marked as "afk" in 0. 7 and excluded with the "only actual players" tick box in the server list?

This proposal does not change the treatment of AFK players in any way.

61 Reply by HMH

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

Another question: What about adding a new gamemode here: https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/ … /gamemodes and still providing standard gametypes but having some votes to switch gametype ?

Luck is allowed

62 Reply by pelya

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

Then I assume your server must remove itself from the list when the non-standard gametype is selected.