26 Reply by heinrich5991

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

Baklava wrote:

As I have said, rules can be applied literally or in spirit. If you take them literally, one has to consider some technical stuff, because the whole issue you are refering to is about terminology, i.e. whether (some server) is /pure/ or not. I don't see how we could discuss this without talking about the technical implementation. In my previous post, I said all what I have to show that econ bots literally don't void any rules.

Well, I am seeking to clarify these rules. For anyone investigating whether a server is pure or not it's indistinguishable if the server achieves, say killing spree messages via an econ bot or via a source code modification, and I say it doesn't matter, so I want to change the rules to "the server must not exhibit non-standard behavior to clients".

27 Reply by Baklava

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

heinrich5991 wrote:

... so I want to change the rules to "the server must not exhibit non-standard behavior to clients".

Now since this is a suggestion to alter the rules, first of all, thanks for making it open to discussion and getting feedback from the community.
IMHO, there is no need for a new rule to disallow nonstandard behavior, since the current rules already guarantee that the gameplay can't be modified by any means. And I think gameplay is what matters.

Meuhmeuhmeuh xD

28 Reply by heinrich5991

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

My suggestion for the new rules:

The server must not exhibit non-standard behavior to the clients. This means in particular:
1. The player count must coincide with the number of actual players on the server, this means neither server-side bots nor permanent client-side bots are to be counted. Benefit of doubt is given to server owners in case of apparant client-side bots that might not be owned by them.
2. The game play must not be modified in any way.
3. Client-side bots are allowed on the server.


Please post your own suggestions for the rules (be as precise as possible, please).

29 Reply by JonastheRoman

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

heinrich5991 wrote:

(...)
1. The player count must coincide with the number of actual players on the server, this means neither server-side bots nor permanent client-side bots are to be counted. Benefit of doubt is given to server owners in case of apparant client-side bots that might not be owned by them.
2. The game play must not be modified in any way.
3. Client-side bots are allowed on the server. (...)

2. This means things like killing-spree messages would be allowed?
3. And server-side bots are not, because then the server would be modified?

Loving TW since 2010 smile

30 Reply by heinrich5991

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

JonastheRoman wrote:

2. This means things like killing-spree messages would be allowed?
3. And server-side bots are not, because then the server would be modified?

I intended to disallow things like killing spree messages too, maybe I need to clarify it a bit.
Regarding 3., yes this would be disallowed because the server would be modified.

31 Reply by Netherland

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

heinrich5991 wrote:

My suggestion for the new rules:

The server must not exhibit non-standard behavior to the clients. This means in particular:
1. The player count must coincide with the number of actual players on the server, this means neither server-side bots nor permanent client-side bots are to be counted. Benefit of doubt is given to server owners in case of apparant client-side bots that might not be owned by them.
2. The game play must not be modified in any way.
3. Client-side bots are allowed on the server.


Please post your own suggestions for the rules (be as precise as possible, please).

Are you allowed to edit official maps and host them on pure servers without renaming the map?
What about the map rules?

privet

32 Reply by heinrich5991

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

Netherland wrote:

Are you allowed to edit official maps and host them on pure servers without renaming the map?
What about the map rules?

Good catch! Although this is prevented by the server code, I guess it wouldn't hurt to include it here as well.

33 Reply by Dune

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

Netherland wrote:
heinrich5991 wrote:

My suggestion for the new rules:

The server must not exhibit non-standard behavior to the clients. This means in particular:
1. The player count must coincide with the number of actual players on the server, this means neither server-side bots nor permanent client-side bots are to be counted. Benefit of doubt is given to server owners in case of apparant client-side bots that might not be owned by them.
2. The game play must not be modified in any way.
3. Client-side bots are allowed on the server.


Please post your own suggestions for the rules (be as precise as possible, please).

Are you allowed to edit official maps and host them on pure servers without renaming the map?
What about the map rules?

Isn't there a client-side protection or something against modified maps having the same name as an official map?

Not Luck, Just Magic.

34 Reply by heinrich5991

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

Dune wrote:

Isn't there a client-side protection or something against modified maps having the same name as an official map?

Not to give anyone ideas, but not for the server browser.

35 Reply by pelya

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

I would prefer for only human players to be shown in server list. In Quake 3 for example, you can view the amount of bots and human players separately, but in Teeworlds it's not possible because of technical reasons.
So, a server with 16 max players, 1 human and 3 bots should show up in serverlist as 1/12.
For a technical side, we may require all bots, both client-side and server-side, to have player name or player clan "[bot] ....", and modify official server so that the amount of bots can be calculated in the vanilla server with a simple substring search.

No other game has such stigma towards bots, maybe it's time to simply introduce bots to the gameplay and hosting rules? In Quake 3 you just select the amount of bots you want from the 'Start Server' menu.

36 Reply by JonastheRoman

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

Hmmm, I don't know. The thing is that it is not particularly much fun to play with bots in Teeworlds. Some are too strong, while every bot gets too predictable after some time, which takes away all the fun. Real players mostly don't act that predictable, and they can be tricked.
So I don't think it would be wise to introduce a system like in Quake.

Loving TW since 2010 smile

37 Reply by pelya

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

Well bots in Quake got several years of development poured into them, they can even chat and reply to you. Bots on Teeworlds are mostly like one or another dude who can code does path navigation algorithm over weekend, adds rope jumping, maybe adds grenade curve prediction, and that's it. If sources would be put to Github, people would add more features and would make the bot more life-like, talking and avoiding bullets, picking up better weapons, and doing rope jump boosts on teammates.
But first we need to agree that putting bot sources to Github is not an awful move, and will not help immature hax0rz any more than downloading aim-cheat-bot from at least ten places in the 'net, as they are doing now.

38 Reply by heinrich5991

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

So, new suggestion (changes are bold):

1. The player count must coincide with the number of actual players on the server, this means neither server-side bots nor permanent client-side bots are to be counted. Benefit of doubt is given to server owners in case of apparant client-side bots that might not be owned by them.
2. The game play must not be modified in any way. This includes things like displaying killing spree messages, adding chat commands, etc.
3. Client-side bots are allowed on the server. Server-side bots are disallowed by rule 2.
4. Servers hosting modified official maps must rename them.

39 Reply by Dune

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

heinrich5991 wrote:

1. The player count must coincide with the number of actual players on the server, this means neither server-side bots nor permanent client-side bots are to be counted. Benefit of doubt is given to server owners in case of apparant client-side bots that might not be owned by them.

This looks very nice, but isn't the survival CFT server infringing this rule?
46.38.237.221:8303

Not Luck, Just Magic.

40 Reply by heinrich5991

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

Dune wrote:
heinrich5991 wrote:

1. The player count must coincide with the number of actual players on the server, this means neither server-side bots nor permanent client-side bots are to be counted. Benefit of doubt is given to server owners in case of apparant client-side bots that might not be owned by them.

This looks very nice, but isn't the survival CFT server infringing this rule?
46.38.237.221:8303

"My" (SandSnake's) survival CFT server is indeed violating that proposed rule. That will definitely get fixed if we adjust the rules.

41 Reply by rand() (edited by rand() 2015-09-18 12:12:00)

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

Is a server that doesn't count permanent client-side bots respects rule 2 ?

42 Reply by Dune

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

rand() wrote:

Is a server that doesn't count permanent client-side bots respects rule 2 ?

If the server is pure, then imo the rule 2 is always respected.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

43 Reply by heinrich5991

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

rand() wrote:

Is a server that doesn't count permanent client-side bots respects rule 2 ?

We'll provide an official patch for that.

44 Reply by rand()

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

Ok, I m looking for it big_smile

45 Reply by fisted

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

Oy wrote:
heinrich5991 wrote:
Oy wrote:

True. That's already happening with the 64 player servers. They advertise fake player counts and have an unfair advantage over standard ones in the server browser.

They don't have an unfair advantage,

Of course they have.
When a server that plays by the book has 16 players it gets filtered by the "full server"-option. A 64 player server does not, shows 15 players and stays on top of the server browser.
20 players have to be divided on 2 regular servers (f.e. à 10 players) and one or both servers would show up down the list. While the 64 player server can handle all of them, shows 15 players and stays on top of the list.

heinrich5991 wrote:

they advertise *less* players than they have.

Yeah they advertise fake player counts. Doesn't matter if too much or too less - they're fake.

This whole point is completely moot as none of the 64p servers advertise themselves as pure to begin with.

On an aside, what are the servers supposed to do? They're only advertising 15/16 because the vanilla developers felt there's no need to allow the client serverlist to show player counts >16. Even for non-pure servers, where the usual filters would completely address the matter anyway.

46 Reply by Oy

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

fisted wrote:
Oy wrote:
heinrich5991 wrote:

They don't have an unfair advantage,

Of course they have.
When a server that plays by the book has 16 players it gets filtered by the "full server"-option. A 64 player server does not, shows 15 players and stays on top of the server browser.
20 players have to be divided on 2 regular servers (f.e. à 10 players) and one or both servers would show up down the list. While the 64 player server can handle all of them, shows 15 players and stays on top of the list.

heinrich5991 wrote:

they advertise *less* players than they have.

Yeah they advertise fake player counts. Doesn't matter if too much or too less - they're fake.

This whole point is completely moot as none of the 64p servers advertise themselves as pure to begin with.

The rules about showing correct player stats apply to every server that uses the Teeworlds master server not just pure ones.

fisted wrote:

On an aside, what are the servers supposed to do? They're only advertising 15/16 because the vanilla developers felt there's no need to allow the client serverlist to show player counts >16.

Nobody stops you from following the rules and show correct player stats. Or from hosting/using your own master server if you aren't happy with the circumstances that Teeworlds provides.

Remember the 80s - good times smile

47 Reply by JonastheRoman

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

Oy wrote:

Nobody stops you from following the rules and show correct player stats. Or from hosting/using your own master server if you aren't happy with the circumstances that Teeworlds provides.

The servers usually do show the correct players count in their title. And 16/16 isn't the correct number, either. Using different master servers would divide the community, I think.

What about introducing 64 players to vanilla, with a few appropriate maps, so you can justify the "/64"? I know it wouldn't be good to do this just to help DDnet with their player counts, but maybe 64 players would enhance vanilla in certain aspects anyway? (Aside from DM/TDM/CTF with bigger maps, the Survival mode or the Race mode would benefit from this?)

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48 Reply by Schwertspize

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

64p is not the point. I think the main point is, that mods will always be faster than vanilla. so probably we want to help mods being completely different from vanilla. so I don't think you should add 64p to vanilla or the masters. I think you should add -any high number Here, probably an int- players get accepted by client and master. just say, vanilla is 16p but you can do more players. again, there is a vanilla checkbox in the client. why? just because there are mods. so why shouldn't we support *any* number of players. because it's not much work to do this and it would simplify the work of nearly all mods, and besides there are servers with more than 64p out there. I think we should make the master and Vania client more flexible concerning mods.

Having troubles finding servers in the serverlist? Go to Pastebin (its a referer cause there is daily a new pastebin) and add the lines to your settings.cfg (in %APPDATA%\teeworlds). Then open teeworlds and go to the favorites tab. (Note however, standard teeworlds client can only show 256 favorites, use ddnet instead)

49 Reply by jxsl13

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

How about just lowering the player count on ddnet servers to 16.

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50 Reply by Schwertspize (edited by Schwertspize 2015-09-27 13:53:30)

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Re: What constitutes a "pure" server?

I think it's not just ddnet. there are small maps (eg dm1) and big ones (ctf5). why not let map designers choose how many players are good on the map. as example, map maker can "define" the maximum number of players with the number of spawn points

Having troubles finding servers in the serverlist? Go to Pastebin (its a referer cause there is daily a new pastebin) and add the lines to your settings.cfg (in %APPDATA%\teeworlds). Then open teeworlds and go to the favorites tab. (Note however, standard teeworlds client can only show 256 favorites, use ddnet instead)