1 Topic by Slayer *gV*

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Topic: Are leagues "community business"?

While most games motivate new players with rewards (like achievements or ranks), there is definitely a lack of it in Teeworlds. Over the years, from time to time topics came up about suggestions for different methods to motivate player and keep them playing this game to improve their skills for the high level scene.

Much time passed and most suggestions were declined, reasoned with "doesn't fit to KISS" or "can not be done yet".
Version 0.7 shifts some changes with it and personally I do feel that it is time to implement some league-system, or at least some game-sided support to ease it.

Probably an account system would be basic for a nice working league system. But it doesn't fit KISS.
Achievements do not fit KISS.
A master-server navigation (the master-server selects the proper server for you) does not fit KISS.

I accept to stick with KISS principle, but we should re-define it for the sake of this game.
An account-system could fit KISS. For example, IRC uses a simple account system (keep it SIMPLE, stupid)!
Achievement systems could fit KISS. Counting wins, loss, kills, deaths, damages, pickups, whatever is nothing really difficult or "non-simple", dependent of its implementation of course.
A master-server navigation could fit KISS. I even think that it could be more KISS than a manual client-sided server navigation. It could even exist besides the current system imo.

Currently, I am discussing with Alucard to invent some new league system. While we have plenty of ideas, we always reach our possible limits by Teeworlds soon. For example let us take a look at Starcraft II, where you get ranked for your wins and defeats. Wins will give you positive score, defeats of course negative. If you reach certain ranks, you will be promoted to a higher league (see also: http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/League_ … raft_II%29).
On its basics, this system isn't very difficult to implement, but would require at least some kind of data storage. The ranks should be stored for each account, but as Teeworlds doesn't have any account-system, we could just take the current nickname or some kind of log-in via chat.

This would require a server-sided modification and of course only work on those servers. But is it really the task of the community, to organize or "invent" leagues? Why doesn't Teeworlds bring its own league system? In my opinion a question worthy to be discussed.

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2 Reply by BeaR

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

Can't remember hearing that an account system has be declined.

The probably biggest drawback of such a league system or at least matchmaking, would be the centralization imho.
You need some infrastructure of trusted servers, a matchmaking server, an account system, .. running all on by the teeworlds team itself.

3 Reply by TeecTac

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

Teeworlds does not bring its own league system because such is not the will of the core developpers.
An account system brings accessibility restrictions, development costs and a community duty to maintain such a system.

I think the reason why its not being done is a combination of these 3 factors : accessibility restrictions work against the open philosophy that has kept teeworlds alive so far, development resources are scarce and trusted community members are hard to identify, changing, not always available nor interested.

That being said, if someone came up with an implementation of an account system for vanilla that would allow anyone to run a server while enabling people to gather into selective leagues, then i guess it would be integrated into mainstream.

Developper of teeworlds-stats.info

4 Reply by 2gethR (edited by 2gethR 2014-11-09 10:30:38)

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

TeecTac wrote:

Teeworlds does not bring its own league system because such is not the will of the core developpers.

Are you seriously implying, that the developers themselves decide, what's good for the community? Then please think again, because it's the community itself, which knows, what's good for them.

I think adding achievements cannot be a big deal, because it's all client sided. An entire account system would probably take twice as long as the development of 0.7, because of the competence and limit of our developers. Then again, it would be the biggest change in Teeworlds history and would mean a lot. I am sure people would get more competitive still and new members could get into the drill easier. As for the league system; this one is limited pretty early, thinking about the hosts of servers. They surely would wait for an update for their servers forever. And even then it's not clear, if they won't be too lazy to add it, or they'd say, "Ph, no thanks, we want to stick to the OLD principles."
To me, the development of Teeworlds is dead. Even when 0.7 gets released, Teeworlds will always be one of the more dumbed down games. Teeworlds will never reach a respectable point at this rate. The only thing that we can respect about it, is our small little community that we have, or at least a third of it. Teeworlds can never be able to hold up to any standards of any professionally programmed game.

Move along, nothing to see here, really.

5 Reply by Slayer *gV*

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

I'm afraid that this game doesn't go through any "big" changes to stick to old principles.
As TheDerero pointed out, an achievment-system is no big deal (if implemented client-sided). You could even add some kind of ranking. If done client-sided it would be abused a lot for sure, but who cares? And going from client to server-sided would be a step closer!
With a client-sided rank, "fair" players could pick proper servers with a server-skill-indicator. This could be even calculated dynamically and shown up in the server browser.

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6 Reply by TeecTac

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

Slayer *gV* wrote:

With a client-sided rank, "fair" players could pick proper servers with a server-skill-indicator. This could be even calculated dynamically and shown up in the server browser.

I like this idea, it would empower players with the ability to choose a server according to their skill level.
If displayed in the player score list, it would also enable people to kick tees that are too skilled (or not enough).

This client-side 'rank' should actually be a measure of agility, capturing the player's intrinsic skills.

Developper of teeworlds-stats.info

7 Reply by Dune

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

TheDerero wrote:

Are you seriously implying, that the developers themselves decide, what's good for the community?

Well yeah they decide what they put in their game. Doesn't look shocking to me.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

8 Reply by Pathos

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

The devs decide what they put in the game. The players decide if it's good or not to either play or quit the game. In order to make good changes, statistics is important, tinkering with maps, balancing weapons, etc. Downward trend on Google Trends tells you the picture on how happy the players are.

Who agreed to the KIS principle? If KIS is hindering progress, it should be tossed. Just look at how many made an account at race.teesites.net to keep records. 931 users and this is only for Teerace. Teerace has very basic achievement system. However, I think account system should come before achievements. The topic of account system has been discussed countless times before I even started playing TW. You wonder why...

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9 Reply by Dune

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

Afaik, no developer has ever rejected the idea of an account system because of KISS.
The feature isn't done because it's a lot of work, not because someone said it shouldn't be in Teeworlds.

Or did I miss something?

Not Luck, Just Magic.

10 Reply by Soup

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

If you want to have more players who play teeworlds an account/achievement system would be fine, because it would be more equal to other games. But nevertheless it's worth thinking about if this is a worthwhile aim for teeworlds, which most stunning quality is the unique gameplay and style. I think the absence of an account system is one of many things which make teeworlds to such a great game.

11 Reply by Slayer *gV*

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

Dune wrote:

Afaik, no developer has ever rejected the idea of an account system because of KISS.
The feature isn't done because it's a lot of work, not because someone said it shouldn't be in Teeworlds.

Or did I miss something?

Well, you are right. Didn't research it well enough!
Anyway, it is somewhat tagged as "not in near future if ever" (at least is that what I feel about the current situation)

Pathos wrote:

Who agreed to the KIS principle? If KIS is hindering progress, it should be tossed.

KISS (Keep it simple, stupid) is a paradigm to implement software features in a simple way (code, usage). I am totally fine with sticking to KISS, it is actually very good and used in many projects, even in OS like Arch Linux.
But you have to re-define KISS for each project: What would stick to this principle and what wouldn't.

Pathos wrote:

I think account system should come before achievements.

Achievements do not require accounts. If done client-sided you won't have any protection or certification, anyway there are many games doing so.

Soup wrote:

     
If you want to have more players who play teeworlds an account/achievement system would be fine, because it would be more equal to other games. But nevertheless it's worth thinking about if this is a worthwhile aim for teeworlds, which most stunning quality is the unique gameplay and style. I think the absence of an account system is one of many things which make teeworlds to such a great game.

There was a statement once (don't kill me but I think it was Magnet), who said that if there will be an account system, then you won't need to register an accont to play. It would be an addition.

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12 Reply by eeeee (edited by eeeee 2014-11-11 08:02:00)

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

Let me ask you this: why do you think we've seen countless tw mods to implement some sort of account system, but yet no attempt has ever been made for vanilla?

13 Reply by Jambi*

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

Dune wrote:
TheDerero wrote:

Are you seriously implying, that the developers themselves decide, what's good for the community?

Well yeah they decide what they put in their game. Doesn't look shocking to me.

"their game" what a joke
--------------------------------------

and are you sure a acc system was never declined? cuz always i've read some old threads with discussion about changes in tw an acc system was mentioned and for sure also declined (:  but well who cares no one who has something to say beats an eye for tw so have a nice day tudalu

14 Reply by Dune

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

Slayer *gV* wrote:

Well, you are right. Didn't research it well enough!

I don't understand what you mean.

Slayer *gV* wrote:

Anyway, it is somewhat tagged as "not in near future if ever" (at least is that what I feel about the current situation)

It's a low-priority thing but its concept has not been rejected right?

Not Luck, Just Magic.

15 Reply by Slayer *gV*

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

Dune wrote:
Slayer *gV* wrote:

Well, you are right. Didn't research it well enough!

I don't understand what you mean.

Just nevermind, I was simply wrong in this point.

Dune wrote:
Slayer *gV* wrote:

Anyway, it is somewhat tagged as "not in near future if ever" (at least is that what I feel about the current situation)

It's a low-priority thing but its concept has not been rejected right?

I guess we both don't know the real difference between "low prio" and "we won't live long enough to see it happen". With this game being "nearly perfect" I doubt that such a feature is truly on any future-list anymore.

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16 Reply by Dune

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

Slayer *gV* wrote:

I guess we both don't know the real difference between "low prio" and "we won't live long enough to see it happen". With this game being "nearly perfect" I doubt that such a feature is truly on any future-list anymore.

Well to me the difference would be that if some guy has the motivations and the skills to do a proper implementation of this, an implementation into the official rep would be considered?

Not Luck, Just Magic.

17 Reply by heinrich5991

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

Dune wrote:

Well to me the difference would be that if some guy has the motivations and the skills to do a proper implementation of this, an implementation into the official rep would be considered?

"Might be considered" is probably not strong enough for anyone to start working on it..

18 Reply by CuBe (edited by CuBe 2014-11-14 16:51:07)

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

I don't know if you guys know League of Legends, but I was reading these texts and I thought about how funny/cool it would be if teeworlds had the same strategy.

A client with a friend list etc, soloQ, team ranked. I don't think it would be possible, but it was a funny thought I wanted to share.

Visit our clan: =Eagle= !

19 Reply by PrayzArea (edited by PrayzArea 2014-11-14 19:12:59)

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

Please add an Account System it would be sooooo nice <3
And maybe add some new skins in Tw too make it more diversity (not the best english i know smile )
And you can Add Archivments ^^
But my most favor is that you add a epic account system it would be sooooooooo nice <3 i hate faker :C
(and if you add an account system please add an better friend system too tongue smile )
AND Please add an Better Clan-System too big_smile PLEASE !!! teeworlds needs it really smile

20 Reply by Slayer *gV*

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

I would create a first draft of a specification for an account system in Teeworlds within the next week. Then we could discuss it and hopefully get an official agreement of our devs. With it, we should be able to find some developer for this. Our modding-community has some quite skilled programmer who could do it.
With an account system, it shouldn't be too challenging to implement some leagues, achievements and more.

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21 Reply by Dansi

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

Guys think what there will be possible with an account system!!! You can combine this community here with the ingame community. The possiblitys are endless. Also Offical Clansystems for every mod. People can officaly join offical Clans. You have everything shown up in the Browser. No person can do multiclaning and change names. You can quit a lot of Bots... there are so much things that would be better with a clan system. You can bring the whole Comunity ingame! Peoples get informations about Users. How much serious games they played lost and won. Wich mod they are playing a whole statistic !! - i totaly like the idea of an accountsystem.

22 Reply by unsigned char*

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

Dansi and new bugs...  possible account hacks... etc.. not all its good with account system.

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23 Reply by Alucard

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

unsigned char* wrote:

Dansi and new bugs...  possible account hacks... etc.. not all its good with account system.

You want to go out, but suddenly u start thinking: "it could start to rain, i could get hit by a car, what if i get robbed, i could fall and break something", better stay at home as a coward.

if you did not get the meaning, here the explanation: if you don´t risk it, you will never find out if you will experience something great.

this game has reached it´s peak and there haven´t been any special improvements since i joined the gameplay in 2008. there are possibilities which would enhance the game play, ease event organization or even start serious "esports". i don´t need in game music, new HUD or something similar. other clients have such great options, it would be a shame not to implement those. instead wasting time on new graphics, you could have used it for something more useful which would chain the players to their chairs and shoot the shit out of the tees. unfortunately, i am more interested in watching cat vids on the internet than playing as active as i could...

this community gains day by day new members and there must be some people between those new ones who have the skill and will to help the developers.

endless possibilities, but only if the team is willing...

EVIL Clanpage|EVIL Forum|EVIL Memberlist|TEEWORLDS CLANZONE

24 Reply by unsigned char* (edited by unsigned char* 2014-11-16 23:05:01)

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

Alucard, i only say that Account System isn't the panacea... the devs works in that he like works... don't exists a roadmap (Github issue tracker? No)... if you like it, make it and release it wink

¿What happens with DDoS attacks? ¿You pay the master server? ¿Pay any for play? ... the work, the time, the hardware for run all this community isn't free.

For the players its so good..  new features are always good but for devs and the people who keep the community perhaps not be as good.

P.S: Let me make clear that I am not an official developer teeworlds. Everything I have said are personal opinions.

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25 Reply by Slayer *gV*

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Re: Are leagues "community business"?

Alucard wrote:

i don´t need in game music, new HUD or something similar. other clients have such great options, it would be a shame not to implement those. instead wasting time on new graphics, you could have used it for something more useful which would chain the players to their chairs and shoot the shit out of the tees.

At this point you are wrong. Landil, our graphics dev, is doing enthusiastic and good work, but he isn't a coder.

unsigned char* wrote:

¿What happens with DDoS attacks? ¿You pay the master server? ¿Pay any for play? ... the work, the time, the hardware for run all this community isn't free.

All listed problems do already exist: Teeworlds does suffer from DDoS and hack attacks. We have to pay the master servers. The hardware runs.
I do not know how much money is left, but we stopped taking donations because we have so much money left. Setting up another server, or using an existing one (an account system shouldn't need too many resources), should not be a big deal.

unsigned char* wrote:

For the players its so good..  new features are always good but for devs and the people who keep the community perhaps not be as good.

Yes, we have a lack of devs. They program for fun and in my opinion do they program there own projects, because it is mor fun. If we would have a better coordination about our "future features" we could probably motivate way more skilled programmer, than just deciding what will be taken after it is done (and most times you do it for nothing, it will be discarded)

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