[Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread (Page 1 of 2)

Ever jumped on a slope?

standing still: first picture
moving: second picture

everything else does not feel teeish

wall of text. did not read it. can you sum it up pls

Yes. Yes. No. Teeish is what the developers think teeish is. There is a definition for teestyle in the graphics section, which is completely irrelevant for this topic, but there is one.
If you read my posts you would know that we said that we will adjust the parameters in cooperation with pro-gamers. In that way we make it as teeish as possible.

You can make up your own definition of teeish. But we will prolly never find out what it really is. So the definition of teeishness is: Teeish is what the devs think teeish is.

It might be boring for you. That's okay, i can live with it.
In fact the slopes will add a lot of new opportunities for map design. I cannot forsee all of the possibilities, but there are plenty of new things one can imagine, e.g. rooms with power-ups in which you can slide in pretty fast, but move out slowly, or vice versa. Slopes to easen the entry into the base. Making movement easier for beginners to gain speed ... e.g. you do not need the hook to "gain speed with optimized hooking". So especially beginners might benefit.

it is supposed to be intuitive. Keep it simple stupid - is one of the design guidelines of teeworlds. So we will make movement as it is expected by people who play it for the first time.

We do not wanna increase the skill gap between beginners and pros.

The whole design process of the slopes is supposed to increase game play opportunities without changing the teeworlds feeling. Thus a lot of dev's opinions are involved in creating this.

... If you don't know what a word means, do not use it. If you can't define a word for someone else, don't use it. Stop being ridiculous.

Streamlining gameplay and making it easier for beginners, but not adding anything to the core gameplay or to higher-level gameplay. Pros can already go fast. They don't need these slopes. They will get nothing out of your idea for slopes. Newbs will use these slopes to go faster, but then when there aren't slopes, what will they do? Some maybe get used to them and will just make it that much harder to learn hooking. Also, please provide an example of how slopes could "easen the entry into the base".  I'm honestly curious because I think that there is not a situation ever where that would be the case.

If movement was as newbs expected it to be, newbs wouldn't have trouble gaining speed and understanding how the hooking physics works.

Oh, I see! Maybe the developers for Quake Live should add automatic strafe jumping to bring newbs closer to pros too! I bet all the mid- to high-level Quake players would be fine with that!
This is honestly the most ridiculous thing I've heard a developer say. Is there an issue with increasing the skill gap? Noobs can play with noobs, pros can play with pros. There's no problem making the game more difficult to master.

The way I write things, what I've written before, and what my name is makes no difference on what I say in this thread or any other.

That's right, it means you don't actually understand the word, you can just use it in a sentence. That's bad.

I play video games, and from the video, I already know mostly what it will play like / feel like. And a virgin can make educated guesses based on what he's seen / heard. This is like seeing a video of vaginal penetration. I can make plenty of guesses on how it'd feel.

This disagreement is more than just about this slope crap. I have a very strange feeling you're trying to make Teeworlds more newb-friendly and less pro-friendly. I don't like that. If I thought you'd just keep it at slopes I wouldn't have replied in the first place. I decided to attempt to stop this before it got out of hand with more newb-friendly/anti-pro things were suggested and added. Yes, it's fine to cater to newbs; it's not fine to alienate the most dedicated players of your game while doing so. These series of replies are more like a complete attack on the idea of making the game newb-friendly and anti-pro.

I'm sorry, it seems that my opinions have managed to find their way into my posts. I assumed reading my posts otherwise would just be too boring, so I snuck a few opinions in there. My opinion is that what you said is the most ridiculous thing I've heard a developer say. I'm sorry if that offends you, I guess. Would you have replied to what I said in that paragraph if I didn't put that in there? Probably not. The idea of me saying was that to express how shocked I was, not to belittle you. Same with the "Did you get a doctorate in "teeish"?" comment, which was meant to exaggerate what I felt and to be a little funny. It's very hard for me to take you too seriously because you seem to not take me seriously. I replied seriously the first time, threw in a joke, you took it the wrong way.

nothing wrong with slopes just being speed up tiles.

hope this gets into the game.

Where's your argumentation?
About 1. we do not have to discuss, you already agree.
2. High-Skill. Using slopes for movement will need additional skills. First of all, now you'll need to master diagonal movement, then you need to know when to use the slopes and how to benefit out of em. High skill players will find a way to use them for their advantages, especially if we have good map makers. Just think about how the grenade launcher nowadays is misused to gain speed. I can't remember people doing this in pre 0.4 times. It was not intended and now people think this is a standard game play mechanic. Every weapon, even the physics were changed in the past development process. And with every change we had reactionary people who mourned even before they tested the feature. "How can you decrease hammer damage", "A laser will destroy teeworlds gameplay" et cetera. The high-skill-scene always found new ways to pwn the others and use the game mechanics. So this change will enable new ways of movement, new ways of map design and new needs for strategy. Even beginners need to learn how to move properly. And map makers will find a lot of way to ensure this.
3. fast game play is one of the focus of teeworls. So why are slopes bad then, if they enable people to gain speed. Just saying that this will ruin the game play for high-skill players is not enuf, because it's simply wrong. I cannot see any proper argument on your side.

It's not that simple. I'm not going to make teeworlds a more simple and less difficult game. The main reason is to increase the opportunites of designing maps. If you have a look at the standard game maps you will basically see ctf2 clones. Maybe even ctf3. Everything else is meant to be low-skill or low-level ctf maps. That honestly sucks. So we want to find out how slopes can be used to increase the game play experience. Just a tiny part of this is done because auf the beginners. Just imagine ctf2 the lower way of the base. there is a small platform with a gl and 3 shields and hearts. if you put slopes on that platform you easen it to go out fast, but you won't make it as easy as if it was not there. You do not stop the movement you just slow the movement down. High skill players will still use the optimal way. But bad movement will not be punished that hard anymore. One mistake and the flag is gone. With a slope the flag will be gone, too. But you might have a better chance to gain speed.

Besides, you we have not even decided yet how the slopes will work. We're currently testing the third approach of physics... so this is really ridiculous. Talking about hypothetical game play changes that have not even defined, yet. But I'm here to discuss it with you ... to make you happy.

I will push if I find out that it improves game play.

I think giving less skilled players some advances or chances to get into this game is great. However, these slopes are the wrong way to do it. Noobs won't learn one of the key requirements to being pro, keeping speed / gaining speed using hook, if those slopes are added. Actually, now that I think about it, making new players play using these slopes and then when they begin to rely on them, it will make them much less likely to be able to compete with higher level players. It hurts pro gameplay by putting could-be pros on crutches by having them rely on slopes.

A good example of trying to help newbs while not disturbing pro gameplay: Quake Live tutorials. Gives everyone the basics of the game that are almost required for gameplay. However, it does not streamline any of those processes and techniques. The equivalent to what we have been discussing would be if there was a strafe jump button which would automatically strafe jump for you. Yes, it helps newbs play better, but overall it does not help their skill and overall hurt would them in the end and make them even less capable of pro play.

Excuse me, it was late at night. I'll reply now while it's early (12:00 here)

This is our main disagreement: you believe that these slopes without the changed jump mechanics will add plenty of skill for pro gameplay. I disagree. I'll explain.

Pro players already have the ability to do what slopes do, which is help themselves move faster. It won't add much, if anything at all, to pro gameplay. For newb gameplay, it will only let them go faster than they can using hooks. Yes, you can do cool stuff with slopes, but you can do similar things already. It won't add any new cool tricks.

Unique gameplay means things that aren't in other games and allow for new things. Slopes are good if they allow unique gameplay. Slopes do not "enable" people to gain speed, it's already possible. That's the issue. Slopes are a mostly useless addition, and if slopes MUST be added, I'd rather they come with unique jump mechanics, to at least make them more fun for everyone.

I've bolded "key" parts  and will reply to them, in order:

1. This is nice, except you can add water or boosting tiles to "increase the opportunities" as well. This isn't a good enough reason, and I doubt it's your main one.

2. This is simply false. There are plenty of maps that have been designed specifically as non-ctf2 clones that have been meant for high-level play. Slopes also won't somehow make another map on the level of ctf2, but different, possible. I would love to explain, but I'm tight on time. In your next reply if you request an explanation I will make one.

(Note: please remember that our main disagreement is that slopes will add a lot of gameplay. If you continue to claim that slopes will add gameplay, this will get nowhere. If you claim it in your next reply again with little evidence or examples, I will go ahead and provide you examples that show slopes add little to gameplay.)

3. This is where I'm iffy. The bad movement won't be punished as much, and it will make it even easier for pros to be pro. This makes the skill gap longer. The skill needed for pros will not increase or decrease, but the skill needed for newbs will decrease. This is exactly what you don't want.

It doesn't matter how they work. Any way you make slopes will be negative unless they somehow add unique gameplay and cool new tricks. My idea for the slopes barely do that, and the tricks you would be able to perform would only seem to be "cool tricks" for those who understand the game. To anyone else, they would, of course, look pretty plain.

Please remember I am not completely against the idea of slopes. I am against the idea of implementing them in a bad way, and the way I suggested they work is, in my opinion, the best way they could work.

And how is the Flagrunner escaping?
Thats pretty shitty man, and if you jump like this | and not like this / you cant get away without getting killed.

That looks like a pretty bad base for fast paced, serious ctf games. It is just pure camping. Honestly, i don't fell that slopes add very much for serious ctf maps. They will be nice for race maps for sure!
Although, i am sure you if you opened that base up more than 1 tile wide, it could be decent.

What affect do the unhookable slopes have? I would love to see that you cant walk up them. Would be really neat.