1

Topic: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

This thread is for the discussion about slopes which started >>here<<.
It's dominated by me and YemDX. Because it might be interesting, we won't discuss this in private messages

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!

2

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

For more fun movement, I would suggest making a jump off of a slope should make you jump like in the picture I am about to post. People here are not native English and I feel that a picture would be much easier for everyone to understand.

http://i.imgur.com/sk39YRk.png

I feel the second would be much better than the first and would add some interesting gameplay. The first is simply boring and (in my opinion) adds little to vanilla Teeworlds gameplay.

Ex-King of Teeworlds

3

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

yemDX wrote:

For more fun movement, I would suggest making a jump off of a slope should make you jump like in the picture I am about to post. People here are not native English and I feel that a picture would be much easier for everyone to understand.

[img ]http://i.imgur.com/sk39YRk.png[ /img]

I feel the second would be much better than the first and would add some interesting gameplay. The first is simply boring and (in my opinion) adds little to vanilla Teeworlds gameplay.


Ever jumped on a slope?

4 (edited by yemDX 2013-08-17 11:39:16)

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

theunknown wrote:
yemDX wrote:

For more fun movement, I would suggest making a jump off of a slope should make you jump like in the picture I am about to post. People here are not native English and I feel that a picture would be much easier for everyone to understand.

[img ]http://i.imgur.com/sk39YRk.png[ /img]

I feel the second would be much better than the first and would add some interesting gameplay. The first is simply boring and (in my opinion) adds little to vanilla Teeworlds gameplay.


Ever jumped on a slope?

Does that matter? Have you ever ran at a high speed and threw a ball? Do you have problems with projectiles not being affected by the player's current speed too? Teeworlds physics aren't the least bit realistic, so you shouldn't ask this kind of question. The second, to me, would seem like the most fun and would add a lot more "pro tricks" for people to do than the first.

Landil wrote:

lol, of course we won't change teeworlds physics. So ofc u will jump like in the picture.
except you are standing still on the slope

Do you mean the first picture, or the second picture? There are two pictures in that image. Both tees are standing still. The video looked like the first was the one being implemented. I can easily explain in more detail my opinion, but before that I'll need you to clarify if you mean the first image or the second image, I don't want to waste my time.

Ex-King of Teeworlds

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Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

yemDX wrote:

Do you mean the first picture, or the second picture? There are two pictures in that image. Both tees are standing still. The video looked like the first was the one being implemented. I can easily explain in more detail my opinion, but before that I'll need you to clarify if you mean the first image or the second image, I don't want to waste my time.

standing still: first picture
moving: second picture

everything else does not feel teeish

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!

6 (edited by yemDX 2013-08-17 12:53:09)

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

Landil wrote:

standing still: first picture
moving: second picture

everything else does not feel teeish

Then I'll just have to disagree and explain my opinion, but first, are you the "teeish" expert? Do you know exactly what's teeish and what's not? Did you get a doctorate in "teeish"? Please explain your opinions with actual statements instead of throwing around a word no one knows the definition of, or cares to know. Either that, or please define "teeish" in a way that's not vague, vague being something such as "something that feels like Teeworlds".

Now onto my opinion: having slopes the way you said is simply boring. Those slopes add literally nothing to Teeworlds gameplay, it just increases/decreases speed. You might as well have speed-up tiles instead of these slopes. There also would be no new "pro tricks" to do. I've rattled my brain for something, but all of the tricks that could be performed with your slopes could all be done regularly but gaining speed with optimized hooking.

The way I suggested, it adds to Teeworlds gameplay. It's another movement modifier. It adds an extra layer of skill by making your jumps not as you would expect them and allows you to change direction more easily, and could add some very fun situations. Also, it would add pro tricks. Running fast into a slope, quickly change direction by jumping off. This alone has tons of possibilities for cool tricks. Yes, you can do the same thing with your slopes, but it requires you to completely stop, and then move towards the direction you want to jump off, and then jump. With my idea for slopes, you'd only have to slow down.

Ex-King of Teeworlds

7

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

yemDX wrote:
Landil wrote:

standing still: first picture
moving: second picture

everything else does not feel teeish

Then I'll just have to disagree and explain my opinion, but first, are you the "teeish" expert? Do you know exactly what's teeish and what's not? Did you get a doctorate in "teeish"? Please explain your opinions with actual statements instead of throwing around a word no one knows the definition of, or cares to know. Either that, or please define "teeish" in a way that's not vague, vague being something such as "something that feels like Teeworlds".

Now onto my opinion: having slopes the way you said is simply boring. Those slopes add literally nothing to Teeworlds gameplay, it just increases/decreases speed. You might as well have speed-up tiles instead of these slopes. There also would be no new "pro tricks" to do. I've rattled my brain for something, but all of the tricks that could be performed with your slopes could all be done regularly but gaining speed with optimized hooking.

The way I suggested, it adds to Teeworlds gameplay. It's another movement modifier. It adds an extra layer of skill by making your jumps not as you would expect them and allows you to change direction more easily, and could add some very fun situations. Also, it would add pro tricks. Running fast into a slope, quickly change direction by jumping off. This alone has tons of possibilities for cool tricks. Yes, you can do the same thing with your slopes, but it requires you to completely stop, and then move towards the direction you want to jump off, and then jump. With my idea for slopes, you'd only have to slow down.

wall of text. did not read it. can you sum it up pls

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!

8 (edited by yemDX 2013-08-17 13:17:39)

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

Landil wrote:

wall of text. did not read it. can you sum it up pls

Would you like to voice chat instead then? It's not something that can be easily summarized. Or perhaps I could read my post for you and you could listen to it.

Ex-King of Teeworlds

9

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

yemDX wrote:

Then I'll just have to disagree and explain my opinion, but first, are you the "teeish" expert? Do you know exactly what's teeish and what's not? Did you get a doctorate in "teeish"? Please explain your opinions with actual statements instead of throwing around a word no one knows the definition of, or cares to know. Either that, or please define "teeish" in a way that's not vague, vague being something such as "something that feels like Teeworlds".

Yes. Yes. No. Teeish is what the developers think teeish is. There is a definition for teestyle in the graphics section, which is completely irrelevant for this topic, but there is one.
If you read my posts you would know that we said that we will adjust the parameters in cooperation with pro-gamers. In that way we make it as teeish as possible.

You can make up your own definition of teeish. But we will prolly never find out what it really is. So the definition of teeishness is: Teeish is what the devs think teeish is.

yemDX wrote:

Now onto my opinion: having slopes the way you said is simply boring. Those slopes add literally nothing to Teeworlds gameplay, it just increases/decreases speed. You might as well have speed-up tiles instead of these slopes. There also would be no new "pro tricks" to do. I've rattled my brain for something, but all of the tricks that could be performed with your slopes could all be done regularly but gaining speed with optimized hooking.

It might be boring for you. That's okay, i can live with it.
In fact the slopes will add a lot of new opportunities for map design. I cannot forsee all of the possibilities, but there are plenty of new things one can imagine, e.g. rooms with power-ups in which you can slide in pretty fast, but move out slowly, or vice versa. Slopes to easen the entry into the base. Making movement easier for beginners to gain speed ... e.g. you do not need the hook to "gain speed with optimized hooking". So especially beginners might benefit.

yemDX wrote:

The way I suggested, it adds to Teeworlds gameplay. It's another movement modifier. It adds an extra layer of skill by making your jumps not as you would expect them and allows you to change direction more easily, and could add some very fun situations.

it is supposed to be intuitive. Keep it simple stupid - is one of the design guidelines of teeworlds. So we will make movement as it is expected by people who play it for the first time.

yemDX wrote:

Also, it would add pro tricks. Running fast into a slope, quickly change direction by jumping off. This alone has tons of possibilities for cool tricks. Yes, you can do the same thing with your slopes, but it requires you to completely stop, and then move towards the direction you want to jump off, and then jump. With my idea for slopes, you'd only have to slow down.

We do not wanna increase the skill gap between beginners and pros.


The whole design process of the slopes is supposed to increase game play opportunities without changing the teeworlds feeling. Thus a lot of dev's opinions are involved in creating this.

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!

10

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

yemDX wrote:
Landil wrote:

wall of text. did not read it. can you sum it up pls

Would you like to voice chat instead then? It's not something that can be easily summarized. Or perhaps I could read my post for you and you could listen to it.

I've just trolled back! You should be polite if you wanna be taken serious.

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!

11 (edited by yemDX 2013-08-17 14:10:43)

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

Landil wrote:

Yes. Yes. No. Teeish is what the developers think teeish is. There is a definition for teestyle in the graphics section, which is completely irrelevant for this topic, but there is one.
If you read my posts you would know that we said that we will adjust the parameters in cooperation with pro-gamers. In that way we make it as teeish as possible.

You can make up your own definition of teeish. But we will prolly never find out what it really is. So the definition of teeishness is: Teeish is what the devs think teeish is.

... If you don't know what a word means, do not use it. If you can't define a word for someone else, don't use it. Stop being ridiculous.

Landil wrote:

It might be boring for you. That's okay, i can live with it.
In fact the slopes will add a lot of new opportunities for map design. I cannot forsee all of the possibilities, but there are plenty of new things one can imagine, e.g. rooms with power-ups in which you can slide in pretty fast, but move out slowly, or vice versa. Slopes to easen the entry into the base. Making movement easier for beginners to gain speed ... e.g. you do not need the hook to "gain speed with optimized hooking". So especially beginners might benefit.

Streamlining gameplay and making it easier for beginners, but not adding anything to the core gameplay or to higher-level gameplay. Pros can already go fast. They don't need these slopes. They will get nothing out of your idea for slopes. Newbs will use these slopes to go faster, but then when there aren't slopes, what will they do? Some maybe get used to them and will just make it that much harder to learn hooking. Also, please provide an example of how slopes could "easen the entry into the base".  I'm honestly curious because I think that there is not a situation ever where that would be the case.

Landil wrote:

it is supposed to be intuitive. Keep it simple stupid - is one of the design guidelines of teeworlds. So we will make movement as it is expected by people who play it for the first time.

If movement was as newbs expected it to be, newbs wouldn't have trouble gaining speed and understanding how the hooking physics works.

Landil wrote:

We do not wanna increase the skill gap between beginners and pros.

Oh, I see! Maybe the developers for Quake Live should add automatic strafe jumping to bring newbs closer to pros too! I bet all the mid- to high-level Quake players would be fine with that! smile
This is honestly the most ridiculous thing I've heard a developer say. Is there an issue with increasing the skill gap? Noobs can play with noobs, pros can play with pros. There's no problem making the game more difficult to master.

Landil wrote:

I've just trolled back! You should be polite if you wanna be taken serious.

The way I write things, what I've written before, and what my name is makes no difference on what I say in this thread or any other.

Ex-King of Teeworlds

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Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

yemDX wrote:

... If you don't know what a word means, do not use it. If you can't define a word for someone else, don't use it. Stop being ridiculous.

Well, just because you can't define a word does not mean you do not know what it means.

yemDX wrote:

Streamlining gameplay and making it easier for beginners, but not adding anything to the core gameplay or to higher-level gameplay. Pros can already go fast. They don't need these slopes. They will get nothing out of your idea for slopes.

you have not even tested it and you already know that pros will dislike it. That's like letting a virgin speculate how sex feels like.

yemDX wrote:

Also, please provide an example of how slopes could "easen the entry into the base".  I'm honestly curious because I think that there is not a situation ever where that would be the case.

Dude, I do not need to proof anything and I do not wanna discuss things theoretically. That's why I started making it. The one who makes decides. 
Besides, reread the posts. We do not even know if this becomes official and you are already discussing it as if it will be released next week. So instead of stealing my time with senseless chatter you could do something on your own to improve the vanilla teeworlds experience so that there is not only a hardcore-pro-gaming-scene consisting of a bunch of people worldwide.

yemDX wrote:

The way I write things, what I've written before, and what my name is makes no difference on what I say in this thread or any other.

I personally do not care a farthing what you wrote in other threads. This time you are "talking" to me.
The way you write your posts is not the kind of conversation I prefer. Trying to ridicule the person opposite by saying "the most ridiculous thing I've heard a developer say" or "Did you get a doctorate in "teeish"?" that's trolling and disrespecting. There is no objective argumentative purpose for that except trying to make me look small. And that's what I dislike!

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!

13

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

Landil wrote:

Well, just because you can't define a word does not mean you do not know what it means.

That's right, it means you don't actually understand the word, you can just use it in a sentence. That's bad.

Landil wrote:

you have not even tested it and you already know that pros will dislike it. That's like letting a virgin speculate how sex feels like.

I play video games, and from the video, I already know mostly what it will play like / feel like. And a virgin can make educated guesses based on what he's seen / heard. This is like seeing a video of vaginal penetration. I can make plenty of guesses on how it'd feel.

Landil wrote:

Dude, I do not need to proof anything and I do not wanna discuss things theoretically. That's why I started making it. The one who makes decides. 
Besides, reread the posts. We do not even know if this becomes official and you are already discussing it as if it will be released next week. So instead of stealing my time with senseless chatter you could do something on your own to improve the vanilla teeworlds experience so that there is not only a hardcore-pro-gaming-scene consisting of a bunch of people worldwide.

This disagreement is more than just about this slope crap. I have a very strange feeling you're trying to make Teeworlds more newb-friendly and less pro-friendly. I don't like that. If I thought you'd just keep it at slopes I wouldn't have replied in the first place. I decided to attempt to stop this before it got out of hand with more newb-friendly/anti-pro things were suggested and added. Yes, it's fine to cater to newbs; it's not fine to alienate the most dedicated players of your game while doing so. These series of replies are more like a complete attack on the idea of making the game newb-friendly and anti-pro.

Landil wrote:

I personally do not care a farthing what you wrote in other threads. This time you are "talking" to me.
The way you write your posts is not the kind of conversation I prefer. Trying to ridicule the person opposite by saying "the most ridiculous thing I've heard a developer say" or "Did you get a doctorate in "teeish"?" that's trolling and disrespecting. There is no objective argumentative purpose for that except trying to make me look small. And that's what I dislike!

I'm sorry, it seems that my opinions have managed to find their way into my posts. I assumed reading my posts otherwise would just be too boring, so I snuck a few opinions in there. My opinion is that what you said is the most ridiculous thing I've heard a developer say. I'm sorry if that offends you, I guess. Would you have replied to what I said in that paragraph if I didn't put that in there? Probably not. The idea of me saying was that to express how shocked I was, not to belittle you. Same with the "Did you get a doctorate in "teeish"?" comment, which was meant to exaggerate what I felt and to be a little funny. It's very hard for me to take you too seriously because you seem to not take me seriously. I replied seriously the first time, threw in a joke, you took it the wrong way.

Ex-King of Teeworlds

14

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

yemDX wrote:

That's right, it means you don't actually understand the word, you can just use it in a sentence. That's bad.

Please define it for me. Looks like my English skills are not sufficient to define it.

yemDX wrote:

I play video games, and from the video, I already know mostly what it will play like / feel like. And a virgin can make educated guesses based on what he's seen / heard. This is like seeing a video of vaginal penetration. I can make plenty of guesses on how it'd feel.

Our video is lika a video of two naked kids. And you are making plenty of guesses how their sex life is like.

yemDX wrote:

This disagreement is more than just about this slope crap. I have a very strange feeling you're trying to make Teeworlds more newb-friendly and less pro-friendly.

Can you please define that feeling.

yemDX wrote:

My opinion is that what you said is the most ridiculous thing I've heard a developer say. I'm sorry if that offends you, I guess. Would you have replied to what I said in that paragraph if I didn't put that in there? Probably not.

Prolly, yes.

And making a game more interesting for standard players is not ridiculous.
Besides, I'm sure pro-player will find a way to use the slopes for their advantage. Thus we involve pro-players in the developing process...

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!

15

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

nothing wrong with slopes just being speed up tiles.

hope this gets into the game.

16

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

Landil wrote:

Please define it for me. Looks like my English skills are not sufficient to define it.

Sure, no problem. The definition of Teeish to me is the following, together:
1. Fast gameplay.
2. High-skill.
3. Unique gameplay.
4. Cute.

Slopes only add to 1, not the other three, although 4 is mostly just for the style of the game.

Landil wrote:

Our video is lika a video of two naked kids. And you are making plenty of guesses how their sex life is like.

I'm going to ignore this.

Landil wrote:

Can you please define that feeling.

Sure. Based on what you've done in the past, your skill level, and your opinions, I have come to the conclusion that you are attempting to make Teeworlds a more simple, less difficult game. The comment you've made about not increasing the skill gap is, to me, proof of this.

Landil wrote:

Prolly, yes.

Then please reply to it. I'd like to see what you think! I'm replying to your clearly sarcastic and pretty passive-aggressive posts, you should do the same!

Landil wrote:

And making a game more interesting for standard players is not ridiculous.
Besides, I'm sure pro-player will find a way to use the slopes for their advantage. Thus we involve pro-players in the developing process...

You are making the game more interesting for standard players, perhaps, but you are making it less interesting for pro players at all, or perhaps even less interesting depending on how much you decide to push slopes.

Ex-King of Teeworlds

17

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

yemDX wrote:

Sure, no problem. The definition of Teeish to me is the following, together:
1. Fast gameplay.
2. High-skill.
3. Unique gameplay.
4. Cute.

Slopes only add to 1, not the other three, although 4 is mostly just for the style of the game.

Where's your argumentation?
About 1. we do not have to discuss, you already agree.
2. High-Skill. Using slopes for movement will need additional skills. First of all, now you'll need to master diagonal movement, then you need to know when to use the slopes and how to benefit out of em. High skill players will find a way to use them for their advantages, especially if we have good map makers. Just think about how the grenade launcher nowadays is misused to gain speed. I can't remember people doing this in pre 0.4 times. It was not intended and now people think this is a standard game play mechanic. Every weapon, even the physics were changed in the past development process. And with every change we had reactionary people who mourned even before they tested the feature. "How can you decrease hammer damage", "A laser will destroy teeworlds gameplay" et cetera. The high-skill-scene always found new ways to pwn the others and use the game mechanics. So this change will enable new ways of movement, new ways of map design and new needs for strategy. Even beginners need to learn how to move properly. And map makers will find a lot of way to ensure this.
3. fast game play is one of the focus of teeworls. So why are slopes bad then, if they enable people to gain speed. Just saying that this will ruin the game play for high-skill players is not enuf, because it's simply wrong. I cannot see any proper argument on your side.

yemDX wrote:

Sure. Based on what you've done in the past, your skill level, and your opinions, I have come to the conclusion that you are attempting to make Teeworlds a more simple, less difficult game. The comment you've made about not increasing the skill gap is, to me, proof of this.

It's not that simple. I'm not going to make teeworlds a more simple and less difficult game. The main reason is to increase the opportunites of designing maps. If you have a look at the standard game maps you will basically see ctf2 clones. Maybe even ctf3. Everything else is meant to be low-skill or low-level ctf maps. That honestly sucks. So we want to find out how slopes can be used to increase the game play experience. Just a tiny part of this is done because auf the beginners. Just imagine ctf2 the lower way of the base. there is a small platform with a gl and 3 shields and hearts. if you put slopes on that platform you easen it to go out fast, but you won't make it as easy as if it was not there. You do not stop the movement you just slow the movement down. High skill players will still use the optimal way. But bad movement will not be punished that hard anymore. One mistake and the flag is gone. With a slope the flag will be gone, too. But you might have a better chance to gain speed.

Besides, you we have not even decided yet how the slopes will work. We're currently testing the third approach of physics... so this is really ridiculous. Talking about hypothetical game play changes that have not even defined, yet. But I'm here to discuss it with you ... to make you happy.

yemDX wrote:
Landil wrote:

And making a game more interesting for standard players is not ridiculous.
Besides, I'm sure pro-player will find a way to use the slopes for their advantage. Thus we involve pro-players in the developing process...

You are making the game more interesting for standard players, perhaps, but you are making it less interesting for pro players at all, or perhaps even less interesting depending on how much you decide to push slopes.

I will push if I find out that it improves game play.

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!

18

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

yemDX, if it disturbes the "pro" gameplay, why not making maps without slopes, or keep the old maps as they are?
Why dont give less skilled players some advances, or chances to get into this game?

19 (edited by yemDX 2013-08-19 19:44:10)

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

Slayer *gV* wrote:

yemDX, if it disturbes the "pro" gameplay, why not making maps without slopes, or keep the old maps as they are?
Why dont give less skilled players some advances, or chances to get into this game?

I think giving less skilled players some advances or chances to get into this game is great. However, these slopes are the wrong way to do it. Noobs won't learn one of the key requirements to being pro, keeping speed / gaining speed using hook, if those slopes are added. Actually, now that I think about it, making new players play using these slopes and then when they begin to rely on them, it will make them much less likely to be able to compete with higher level players. It hurts pro gameplay by putting could-be pros on crutches by having them rely on slopes.

A good example of trying to help newbs while not disturbing pro gameplay: Quake Live tutorials. Gives everyone the basics of the game that are almost required for gameplay. However, it does not streamline any of those processes and techniques. The equivalent to what we have been discussing would be if there was a strafe jump button which would automatically strafe jump for you. Yes, it helps newbs play better, but overall it does not help their skill and overall hurt would them in the end and make them even less capable of pro play.

Landil wrote:

Where's your argumentation?

Excuse me, it was late at night. I'll reply now while it's early (12:00 here)

Landil wrote:

2. High-Skill. Using slopes for movement will need additional skills. First of all, now you'll need to master diagonal movement, then you need to know when to use the slopes and how to benefit out of em. High skill players will find a way to use them for their advantages, especially if we have good map makers. Just think about how the grenade launcher nowadays is misused to gain speed. I can't remember people doing this in pre 0.4 times. It was not intended and now people think this is a standard game play mechanic. Every weapon, even the physics were changed in the past development process. And with every change we had reactionary people who mourned even before they tested the feature. "How can you decrease hammer damage", "A laser will destroy teeworlds gameplay" et cetera. The high-skill-scene always found new ways to pwn the others and use the game mechanics. So this change will enable new ways of movement, new ways of map design and new needs for strategy. Even beginners need to learn how to move properly. And map makers will find a lot of way to ensure this.

This is our main disagreement: you believe that these slopes without the changed jump mechanics will add plenty of skill for pro gameplay. I disagree. I'll explain.

Pro players already have the ability to do what slopes do, which is help themselves move faster. It won't add much, if anything at all, to pro gameplay. For newb gameplay, it will only let them go faster than they can using hooks. Yes, you can do cool stuff with slopes, but you can do similar things already. It won't add any new cool tricks.

Landil wrote:

3. fast game play is one of the focus of teeworls. So why are slopes bad then, if they enable people to gain speed. Just saying that this will ruin the game play for high-skill players is not enuf, because it's simply wrong. I cannot see any proper argument on your side.

Unique gameplay means things that aren't in other games and allow for new things. Slopes are good if they allow unique gameplay. Slopes do not "enable" people to gain speed, it's already possible. That's the issue. Slopes are a mostly useless addition, and if slopes MUST be added, I'd rather they come with unique jump mechanics, to at least make them more fun for everyone.

Landil wrote:

It's not that simple. I'm not going to make teeworlds a more simple and less difficult game. The main reason is to increase the opportunites of designing maps. If you have a look at the standard game maps you will basically see ctf2 clones. Maybe even ctf3. Everything else is meant to be low-skill or low-level ctf maps. That honestly sucks. So we want to find out how slopes can be used to increase the game play experience. Just a tiny part of this is done because auf the beginners. Just imagine ctf2 the lower way of the base. there is a small platform with a gl and 3 shields and hearts. if you put slopes on that platform you easen it to go out fast, but you won't make it as easy as if it was not there. You do not stop the movement you just slow the movement down. High skill players will still use the optimal way. But bad movement will not be punished that hard anymore. One mistake and the flag is gone. With a slope the flag will be gone, too. But you might have a better chance to gain speed.

I've bolded "key" parts  and will reply to them, in order:

1. This is nice, except you can add water or boosting tiles to "increase the opportunities" as well. This isn't a good enough reason, and I doubt it's your main one.

2. This is simply false. There are plenty of maps that have been designed specifically as non-ctf2 clones that have been meant for high-level play. Slopes also won't somehow make another map on the level of ctf2, but different, possible. I would love to explain, but I'm tight on time. In your next reply if you request an explanation I will make one.

(Note: please remember that our main disagreement is that slopes will add a lot of gameplay. If you continue to claim that slopes will add gameplay, this will get nowhere. If you claim it in your next reply again with little evidence or examples, I will go ahead and provide you examples that show slopes add little to gameplay.)

3. This is where I'm iffy. The bad movement won't be punished as much, and it will make it even easier for pros to be pro. This makes the skill gap longer. The skill needed for pros will not increase or decrease, but the skill needed for newbs will decrease. This is exactly what you don't want.

Landil wrote:

Besides, you we have not even decided yet how the slopes will work. We're currently testing the third approach of physics... so this is really ridiculous. Talking about hypothetical game play changes that have not even defined, yet. But I'm here to discuss it with you ... to make you happy.

It doesn't matter how they work. Any way you make slopes will be negative unless they somehow add unique gameplay and cool new tricks. My idea for the slopes barely do that, and the tricks you would be able to perform would only seem to be "cool tricks" for those who understand the game. To anyone else, they would, of course, look pretty plain.

Please remember I am not completely against the idea of slopes. I am against the idea of implementing them in a bad way, and the way I suggested they work is, in my opinion, the best way they could work.

Ex-King of Teeworlds

20

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

http://i.solidfiles.net/923b5245ed.png
So this is a map setup I thought up in two minutes. I am sure there are soo many other new possibilities to make game play more tactical.

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!

21

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

Landil wrote:

http://i.solidfiles.net/923b5245ed.png
So this is a map setup I thought up in two minutes. I am sure there are soo many other new possibilities to make game play more tactical.

And how is the Flagrunner escaping?
Thats pretty shitty man, and if you jump like this | and not like this / you cant get away without getting killed.

22

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

theunknown wrote:
Landil wrote:

http://i.solidfiles.net/923b5245ed.png
So this is a map setup I thought up in two minutes. I am sure there are soo many other new possibilities to make game play more tactical.

And how is the Flagrunner escaping?
Thats pretty shitty man, and if you jump like this | and not like this / you cant get away without getting killed.

The flag runner may escape through the fast exit if no one devs it properly.

and i tested it, you can get away easily, because you slide down and automatically jump / this way

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!

23 (edited by Zgokee 2013-08-19 23:39:51)

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

That looks like a pretty bad base for fast paced, serious ctf games. It is just pure camping. Honestly, i don't fell that slopes add very much for serious ctf maps. They will be nice for race maps for sure!
Although, i am sure you if you opened that base up more than 1 tile wide, it could be decent.

What affect do the unhookable slopes have? I would love to see that you cant walk up them. Would be really neat.

24 (edited by yemDX 2013-08-20 00:27:05)

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

Very interesting concept, Landil! I'll refrain from commenting about the quality of what you have posted! PM me on here or on QuakeNet (nick is yemDX) if you'd like to hear what I really think. wink

First of all, the "shooting holes". What do those shooting holes add to Teeworlds gameplay? Here's what will happen with those shooting holes, especially with newbs:

http://i.imgur.com/g3FxyyT.png

Does this look familiar? Does this add anything to Teeworlds gameplay? Clearly, it doesn't, unless you're a fan of camping.

Next, about this:

http://i.imgur.com/WwG1XZS.png

Does this add to gameplay? Perhaps if what Zgokee said was true... However! This area is basically off-limits. It's extremely easy to defend, and (apparently, for low-level players) difficult to enter. Why would you try to enter from this way? Pro tricks are also impossible, in every sense of the word. Unless you're playing alone in a server with this, good luck doing anything pro. Also, the passage punishes bad movement with a death. This is much more harsh than, say, ctf2, and goes against what you've said earlier.

EDIT: Could you send me a Windows 32-/64-bit build with these slope tiles with the corresponding slope tileset? I'd like to make a playable example of what I would consider to be a fun, challenging, and balanced slope-ful map.

Ex-King of Teeworlds

25

Re: [Discussion] Slopes - YemDX and Landil thread

I think that assuming that slopes will add nothing to gameplay is pretty ignorant. Especially if you have never played teeworlds with said slopes implemented. Don't judge a book by it's cover.

I believe that slopes are adding a lot of diversity to the game in the way that maps are created. On top of slopes, diagonal doodads can be implemented to look good on them and what not.

Landil, you guys need to release a demo to the public so that we can help you decide upon the verdict. I can't come to any conclusions without testing it out myself.

-SALAD