1 Topic by Clawbug

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Topic: Adding player velocity to the grenade velocity

Just like the subject says. In CTF, the EFC(Enemy flag carrier) has huge advantage with grenades when he/she is being chased. More speed, higher advantage.

This is because grenades have static speed. When you run forwards the grenade will fall in front of you. Too close. When running backwards the grenade will fall way farther, because the speed is static. Thus, when someone chases another, the escapee has great advantage due to "increased" range. He/she can shoot way "longer" shots from longer distances, while the chaser has to come very near to be able to hit.

This isn't really an unbalance issue, but there are people who are very fast with grenade boost + hook, that you literally CAN'T kill them unless you can get in front of them, while they can kill you from almost a screen away.

This applies in DM also. I found out that when you start "defensive" play and run away with grenades, you can kill the chaser and she/he has no chance to even hit you if the distance is long enough, while you can even shoot too far. When time goes by, and more and more people realize this, there can be situations when no one wants to rush, but everyone wants to run away. Though, that will be rare and won't happen anytime soon but it seems to be very efficient tactic if used well.

All of this applies to pistol/shotgun as well!

Other solution would be to make Tees slower or grenades/pistol/shotgun projectiles faster.

2 Reply by airen (edited by airen 2008-03-12 00:44:45)

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Re: Adding player velocity to the grenade velocity

This has been discussed before, many times.

http://www.teewars.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=15

Clawbug wrote:

When time goes by, and more and more people realize this, there can be situations when no one wants to rush, but everyone wants to run away. Though, that will be rare and won't happen anytime soon but it seems to be very efficient tactic if used well.

In TDM, this could be true in really large maps with not enough players, in 1on1 it's sort of an issue already (can't play anything larger then dm1, basically). In regular DM(ffa), it ain't true at all, it's a pretty horrible strategy actually. I mean really, it's not a problem in DM, since that gametype is about killing other tees, not avoiding death yourself. It could be possible if the map is too large and the players too few, but that never really happens in practice.

aka kiwi

3 Reply by raph

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Re: Adding player velocity to the grenade velocity

this was discussed in great, great length when Quake 3 was being released. The reality aspect of this is quite poor, but necessary for the game itself. If you fire a grenade at 1100ups (or whatever it is in TeeWars) the grenades initial speed, theoretically, should be 1100ups, and then have the grenades independant velocity script applied. The grenades actual speed, however, is not. Clawbug  hit the nail on the head with his "static speed" theory, and hes right.

This wont be changed, shouldnt be changed, and if it were changed, the gameplay would suffer.

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4 Reply by clasic_traveller_diehard

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Re: Adding player velocity to the grenade velocity

but that won't stop people from modding the game to make it happen

my name is NOT clasic_traveller_die its CLASIC_TRAVELLER_DIEHARD classic traveller is a si-fi rpg from the same era as dungens and dragons lookit up on wikipedia smile

5 Reply by ShootMe

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Re: Adding player velocity to the grenade velocity

yes thats true clasic_traveller_diehard as I just tried it out and it just didn't work well. I havent fiddled around with it alot but I remember KRD talking about only adding a specified percentage of tee veloctiy to projectile, which might make it work better. But without that its pretty bad.

6 Reply by Clawbug (edited by Clawbug 2008-03-12 10:30:59)

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Re: Adding player velocity to the grenade velocity

It doesn't really apply in DM that well(only in 1v1 mainly), but I am more concerned of CTF. As I said before, you cant really catch the EFC of he/she gets his/her speed high enough, there is no way to do so, other than getting in front if him/her. Instead, he/she can get rid of you by shooting, and you have quite much no chance to do anything except try to avoud grenades and get even more speed he/she has.

raph, I can't really understand you.

If you fire a grenade at 1100ups (or whatever it is in TeeWars) the grenades initial speed, theoretically, should be 1100ups, and then have the grenades independant velocity script applied.

If the tee moves at 60xps horizontally and -20yps vertically, that should be added to the grenades speed. Right now shooting downwards is not really possible. Actually you can't have high speed and kill someone with grenades since if the speed is high enough, you need to get past the enemy and shoot backwards to hit him/her.

Airen said already that this is an issue already in 1v1 DM, and I believe CTF might have also issues, as defensive play is way easier and more effective than offensive.

I saw the another thread, but it was closed.

Also in Quake this might not be that big issue since the rockets don't fall down, giving them more range, unlike in Teewars. Also Quake has higher speed rockets.

As I said in the OP, this also applies to shotgun aswell. Escapee has range well over a one screen, while the chaser can't even shoot for the half of a screen. Though, I admit that even IF the tee's velocity was added, chasing would be very hard due to the fast and very unpredictable movement in the game.

7 Reply by Dreamy

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Re: Adding player velocity to the grenade velocity

I believe this wouldn´t be as much of a problem if only bullets were faster than tees.

8 Reply by clasic_traveller_diehard (edited by clasic_traveller_diehard 2008-03-12 21:39:08)

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Re: Adding player velocity to the grenade velocity

the shots are faster than tees

until you use the hook

i'd say a good strategy is to split up have one group grab all the health and armor and the other group chase the flag carrier with pistols (it would only be a matter of time after that)

but thats only for ctf2 there are enough choke points in ctf1 for grenades and shotguns to be effective if you have good timing

any ways this wouldn't be an issue in 0.4.0 because every one will be able to use shootme's server mod and set the projectile speed how they want

my name is NOT clasic_traveller_die its CLASIC_TRAVELLER_DIEHARD classic traveller is a si-fi rpg from the same era as dungens and dragons lookit up on wikipedia smile

9 Reply by raph

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Re: Adding player velocity to the grenade velocity

choke points big_smile

ctf1 is the bomb. Teewars doesnt get any better than that.

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10 Reply by KRD

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Re: Adding player velocity to the grenade velocity

clasic_traveller_diehard wrote:

any ways this wouldn't be an issue in 0.4.0 because every one will be able to use shootme's server mod and set the projectile speed how they want

Yeah, screw balancing the actual game!

D'oh...

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11 Reply by clasic_traveller_diehard

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Re: Adding player velocity to the grenade velocity

any unbalance can be corrected with a good strategy so if you suck at ctf (like i do) quit whining and use your brain to do something about it
options:
1.do what you are doing now (it is why the development forum is here big_smile )
2.see above strategy for thwarting a fleeing flag carrier (using TeamSpeak may help big_smile )
3.mod the game to your liking big_smile
4. practice x infinity smile

my name is NOT clasic_traveller_die its CLASIC_TRAVELLER_DIEHARD classic traveller is a si-fi rpg from the same era as dungens and dragons lookit up on wikipedia smile