[ Closed ] Some thoughts on game balance feedback

I really often see "0.5.0 iz-b-shit-it -$uxx0r$$$-kiddies" running around and whining. Don't know why. They cry about having no new weapons... Even the moderator on GIGA TV was "dissapointed" that no new weapons are there.

*rolleyes*

The only thing I don't like is the vote function. I even knew before 0.5.0 released that this will be a bad idea. And yeah, actually it is a bad idea. I get kicked because I lead the game with 67 points (the second place wth 34) and someone says "cheat0r!!!111one" and I get kicked.

I really don't know what you can do against this. Maybe i'm just too pr0.

I agree with the message, however it does not mean the complaints about 0.5 are the same that happened between other releases.

0.4 was a new game altogether compared to 0.3, whereas 0.5 is still very much the continuation of 0.4. The fact is that, even if balance was not perfect on 0.4, it was not a subject of complaint because, to be honest, you guys had nailed it. Other than the hook being a bit too long, and the hammer too powerful, I really think the game was balanced.

What do I mean by "balance"? Well I take into account the total amount of health a tee can have, the damage of the weapons, the frequency of bonus on official maps, and the fire rate, range, number of ammos; that is, all the elements of gameplay.

For instance, the new shotgun can deal 5 damage from range way higher than in 0.4.x (maybe 1.5x longer). My problem with that is that it makes it a weapon too powerful compared to the amount of health tees have, makes it unbalanced against the laser which does 5 points but requires better aiming (it's hit or miss, while the shotgun is hit or hit softer); of course the laser rifle gives a better range but it was used at mid-range for the very purpose the shotgun is currently used. I know the shotgun had an even better range in 0.3 but that's a moot argument since the laser rifle didn't exist back then.

Then, the improved fire rate: actually from what I heard, the firerate in the code hasn't changed, but the new improved input method and lag reduction makes a second shot about 0.1s faster than in 0.4.3. It changes a lot compared to 0.4 and avoiding grenades like before is almost impossible with grenade spamming. I have no problem with the larger explosion, even if it makes it harder to play on the edge.

Finally, about the hook: my opinion is that the hook defines Teeworlds. It is the very element that makes the game unique; the difficulty of moving smoothly while shooting at others, and the fact that it can be used to help allies to pull them out of danger AND keep enemies to range or immobilized. Here, I agree that in 0.4 the duration was too long, especially coupled with a powerful hammer. However the new hook has lost not only its duration but its strength (or so it feels like); not only the duration is imho a bit short but the loss of strength makes it impossible to do anything advanced with the hook (like pulling the tee so that his next shot will not be at you ; that required skill knowing the exact weapon firerate and could still be countered with different techniques). Even if it was weak before 0.4, I think giving it strength was a great idea to make Teeworlds unique.

My main grippe with the new hook is the loss of a defining Teeworlds element; obviously I am comparing it to something, if the game was brand new I wouldn't think that way, but that's a moot point because I wouldn't know better. I love most of Teeworlds 0.5 brought: a lot of meta-game stuff (demos, voting, etc) and a lot of new blood on vanilla servers (I hope it lasts, but I must say I'm surprised it worked so well, really that's wonderful).

I don't really complain about the slight changes when it comes to movements; it's just a matter of getting used to it, even if I do think the traction should be slightly stronger when hooking a wall. My problem is that the increased strength of weapons and loss of strength of the hook has made the game not only different (that wouldn't be a problem) but slower-paced, and less challenging. Dare I say less fun .

What makes games fun? Raph Koster (designer of my all times favorite Ultima Online) claim that fun is learning — fun games are those which are easy to learn, but hard to master, with a long and smooth learning curve. That's exactly why Teeworlds was so fun.

I think the new Teeworlds makes weapons too easy to use, because random new players just spam shotgun bullets  and grenades. I have found myself in 0.5 with my 0.4 mindset "ok I must still have some health" and then discover that all my health is gone from random bullets because of the crazy range and speed. I have stepped back, learned how to use the weapons the new way, and while I did, it still felt wrong regarding the overall balance.

Now, I do agree with the fact that it is incredibly difficult to balance games; really incredibly difficult. The only thing I don't understand is why the releases brings a balance so different from 0.5 since 0.4 was generally praised as balanced (except the hook which is hated by 1on1 players) ; why not change the balance once you are set on doing it with feedback (that is, why not wait for 0.6 to change anything?).

Anyway what is done is done and we will learn to play with it; yet I look forward balancing sessions organized by the devs soon (and 0.6 soon ). In high-level CTF games the average life time of tees has decreased a lot to a point of feeling too much like Instagib .

Finally, I do hope you guys perceive that the feedback you get is not about being conservative on the game; it is about people who love the game and try to help you improve it. It is not about party crushing but about having the right gameplay. I am the first saddened by my dissatisfaction of the 0.5 gameplay, and I am saddened to see so many outstanding players disappointed too. We were all waiting for it and we didn't expect such a different balance. On the other hand I guess 1on1 dm1 players are happy since their end-game is still balanced and that they missed a longer range shotgun, and hated hooking.

Look, it was the same with 0.4. At the beginning I did not like it at all because the few features did not work properly and there were several bugs. Anyway after some time the 0.4 bugs were fixed and I loved the version. I guess it is the same with 0.5. Sure there are some annoying bugs and people only complain about the negative issues but they do not see the positive things. I am sure 0.5.1 will fix the most important bugs and after some time this release will also be loved.

One of the big problems with balancing is that people tend to dislike changes when they are used to one set of rules. Even the slightest change will make it feel awkward and not likable even if it's better.

From my perspective I feel that listening to balancing tips from people on the forum is rather quite useless. All people write issues about the game balance from their perspective, but everybody plays differently and it's might not be the balance that is wrong, it could be that the player is constantly doing some strategy miss and stuff like that etc.

The best information I've got out when doing balancing is watching different kind of people playing the game. This way I see how they play and what works good and what doesn't. This is why I'm really excited about the demo recording feature of 0.5.0 because it will bring me much much more information and I can analyze big CTF matches and see all players at the same time which have been a problem.

And lastly, haven't people noticed that the game balancing is diverting? For each version, less and less things about the game balance needs fixing. This is how it will be done, make a change, wait at least a month to see the effect of that change and then tune it further.

I completely love the new release. The only problem I have with the game is the hammer & hook combo. The hammer doing three damage, with a weaker hook and a single hammer hit sending the opponent a bit farther has rendered the hammer useless. It used to be that at hooking range, the hammer can destroy the pistol, but now, they pistol almost always wins.

I also noticed that on spawn, you start with pistol out, and I have been a victim to unlucky spawn and spam resulting in a death for no cause. The new changes have brought a lot of spamming to the pistol.

I hope something can be done about this.

i still use the hammer a lot. i reckon that it isnt underpowered. i was playin at a lan party and i kicked only using the hammer. then after that we had a team match 8vs8 and my team used only hammer and we flogged.

Thank the gods (devs) that the lower players now use pistol, too.

EDIT: added plural of god and "(devs)"