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Teeworlds Forum → Developer Journals → Things move forward
imho one could balance it as follows
1st a "reload time" would be great, to make it impossible to abuse the pistol with a macro
2nd if that's done it would be great to see the pistol reloading while using other weapons
In the end, balance is a matter of opinion. I have full confidence in the developers ability to optimize for playability for as many (serious) users as possible.
What they lack for in humbleness they make up for in skill! 
(I'm gonna refer pros that are playing as high-level, noobs as low-level and the rest as mid-level)
Taking balancing tips from random people isn't really a good idea. I have no idea how good they are, what part of the curve they are on etc so it can be a low-level guy playing against a high-level guy and doesn't know how to defend himself.
These measures a mostly based on the high-level game play. I believe that in order to create a balanced game, I must first at how those guys/gals plays and balance the game for it. Then I can start and look how the whole curve looks when I know how the end is. Their speed and reaction is much higher and 2 seconds is a really long time. Getting hooked is more or less equal do death. One could argue that it's how it should be, but I don't think so and it's a matter of taste but all made comments about this when I asked them separately.
I had another thought of how to fix the exploiting of the hammer. Lets say it as a very very very small reload time, lets say 50ms, but when you hit someone, you will get a reload penalty that is 400-500ms. This would make it easy to hit with and you can't spew insane amount of damage from it.
i just beg to remove the possibility of macro pistol spamming as this has nothing to do with normal gameplay and pros mids and noobs.
(I'm gonna refer pros that are playing as high-level, noobs as low-level and the rest as mid-level)
Taking balancing tips from random people isn't really a good idea. I have no idea how good they are, what part of the curve they are on etc so it can be a low-level guy playing against a high-level guy and doesn't know how to defend himself.
These measures a mostly based on the high-level game play. I believe that in order to create a balanced game, I must first at how those guys/gals plays and balance the game for it. Then I can start and look how the whole curve looks when I know how the end is. Their speed and reaction is much higher and 2 seconds is a really long time. Getting hooked is more or less equal do death. One could argue that it's how it should be, but I don't think so and it's a matter of taste but all made comments about this when I asked them separately.
I had another thought of how to fix the exploiting of the hammer. Lets say it as a very very very small reload time, lets say 50ms, but when you hit someone, you will get a reload penalty that is 400-500ms. This would make it easy to hit with and you can't spew insane amount of damage from it.
I think i got a quite good idea... but it's hard to code, i think:
If you use the hammer often, he isn't making that high damage as at the beginning (lol, i don't know how to say that)
okay example:
1. hit = 4dmg (regular)
2. hit = 4dmg
3. hit = 3dmg
4. hit = 2dmg
is that possible? would be great >:3
Maybe it would be good to give pistol a power boost, it's not very useful at the moment, just a suggestion.
Not very useful? Are you kidding me? What weapon will regain its ammo over time? The pistol. What weapon has the longest range? The pistol. What weapon is the most logical to use against a hurt opponent? THE PISTOL, once again! In a chase there's no weapon more suited for attacking, due to the range and speed. Although, I can agree, the pistol is one of the hardest weapons to handle, and that might be a reason why people tend to use other ones more often.
Hello Matricks,
To be honest, I don't like the changes either.
Hammer: it's powerful, but you just can't use it against a skilled player who has a weapon. I've never seen a pro fighting an armed pro with just an hammer. Shouldn't be changed, it's the only way out when you have no weapon at hand (that happens often in crowded games)
Shotgun: the shotgun *is* powerful already. It's already used in mid-close combat and is just as powerful as rocket. No need to change.
Rocket: 5% increase of radius won't change much. I've no problem with that.
Hook: this is the change that scares me the most. Hook is what make tw special. Getting hooked is going to get you in trouble, but that's the need that makes you train your speed. And by the way, when you get hooked you're still able to counter-attack, so the one who dies (if any) is not always the prey.
While I trust your game balancing skills, I'd suggest to watch some more ctf - if you haven't recently - before deciding. There are some nice games happening on fp8 - CTF2 
.
Random Tee wrote:Maybe it would be good to give pistol a power boost, it's not very useful at the moment, just a suggestion.
Not very useful? Are you kidding me? What weapon will regain its ammo over time? The pistol. What weapon has the longest range? The pistol. What weapon is the most logical to use against a hurt opponent? THE PISTOL, once again! In a chase there's no weapon more suited for attacking, due to the range and speed. Although, I can agree, the pistol is one of the hardest weapons to handle, and that might be a reason why people tend to use other ones more often.
AND... If you have good aim, less 10 hp to your enemy. (;
(okay, 10 is difficult)
1st a "reload time" would be great, to make it impossible to abuse the pistol with a macro
2nd if that's done it would be great to see the pistol reloading while using other weapons
/sign
Hammer: it's powerful, but you just can't use it against a skilled player who has a weapon. I've never seen a pro fighting an armed pro with just an hammer. Shouldn't be changed, it's the only way out when you have no weapon at hand (that happens often in crowded games)
Hook: this is the change that scares me the most. Hook is what make tw special. Getting hooked is going to get you in trouble, but that's the need that makes you train your speed. And by the way, when you get hooked you're still able to counter-attack, so the one who dies (if any) is not always the prey.
/sign
{sorry for this big post that has only quotes}
I'm gonna go on an post my thoughts as well. I've read the changes when they were first posted and I had a good night of sleep since so I thought a bit about it.
I understand Matricks' point about different levels in the game. I trust he can recognize a good argument from a bad one without having played with someone, if not I invite him to play with me.
First point: about the ESL finals & 1on1 on dm1 (I was a contestant). These are very particular TW fights with no end-game other than winning. As seen the strategy is to try to control the map by staying on the right side (high enough) to always have the bonus supply, but also to gather weapons to prevent your opponents from having them, and finally to kill them when they spawn.
But when both opponents have weapons and are fighting, they send grenades at each other and there, the first one to be hit is the less lucky or someone who exposes himself too much. When someone gets an advantage he considers good enough, he will try to ensure his kill by going melee fighting (or the one with fewer hps might like to reverse the situation and go make-or-break).
It is extremely hard to kill any competent player who has no ulterior motive (like getting the flag back) with only grenades and pistol. It's not a matter of aiming, it's just that they are easy to avoid if you don't mind taking a different route instead of charging! In dm1 there is no ulterior motive so I'm afraid Matricks is basing his balancing over this. Shotgun is only useful at short range and the only way to limit self damage is to use the hook to shoot in your opponent's back.
BUT! The hook is a double-edged sword! When you hook someone you are likely to be badly hurt: the hook is currently a reward for INITIATIVE on melee. There are different counters to hooking, one being the reciprocal hooking which somehow nullifies the traction bonus one tee has over the other.
On TW with an end-game (e.g CTF), hooking 2seconds is really a necessity. Some players could get away forever with the flag if it was shortened to 1second. With hooking 1sec, the flag will be much easier to take (lower defense level), and flag carriers much harder to kill. Considering how hard some flag carriers are to kill already, I'm not sure this is a good idea.
Lappi said in one post that it was to keep the game simple. Simple does not mean easy. Those are orthogonal concepts. The game is simple already, but it's far from easy, and it shouldn't be (or it would be boring). The current hook+shotgun isn't easy. The concept is simple but its realization is hard. I remember achieving a kill that way with 1 hp, you have to manage not to get it a single time by the enemy shotgun, that's very difficult against even a mid-level player. Seriously, for having introduced quite a lot of friends to the game, they suck so much when they start that they don't care the least bit about being hooked. Any game involving so-called "pros" and "noobs" will suck for both of them anyway.
With the hook reduced to 1sec, some current legitimates techniques won't work anymore. For instance, blocking a tee against a platform and shooting grenades against the wall or curving to fall on the tee (those take about 1.5s to go up and fall down). Those are beautiful killing moves that would disappear from the game.
You got it: I think the hook is good right now. It is the most powerful weapon in the game but it has to be used together with another and it's hard to master; if you're fast enough you can avoid being hooked, and if you can't you can survive. If you don't, well that's hard but, I guess the hook is hardest on flag carriers. It's them who suffer from it the most (to delay them and have teammates come gang them up) and that's a good thing for ctf balance. As for tweaking the force you inflict on a particular opponent, it shouldn't be by too much.
By the way most noobs don't react when being hooked and that's why they die so fast from it.
Onto the hammer. As tacone said, it's almost impossible for a skilled player with a hammer to kill another skilled played with a weapon. It is possible in confined space, true. And I manage it often because other players tend to panic (I get killed by hammer too sometimes). BUT putting a reload would be a huge mistake; I play ClanWars ctf 6vs6 and most weapons are gone because of ctf2-wide weapons lockdown; you have to play pistol + hammer and pistol gets out of ammo very quickly. The hammer is hard enough to use perfectly so that it doesn't need to change. The kills ICE-TEA made with the hammer in ESL were because of initiative, skill, and lack of reaction from his opponents rather than the hammer being overpowered.
Shotgun is fine imho, and grenades exploding more, well why not but why? Most of the time grenades are avoided in the air so there is no detonation even if you avoid them by 1mm (that's a good thing). Having a bigger explosion prevents "finesse" ground grenade evasive maneuver (which are quite funny, when you walk to avoid a grenade 
).
As tacone said (again), matricks should come on fp8 - Ckz ClanServer to watch high-level CTF2 games and he will see that once there is an endgame the game transforms and some features are needed, including the ability to kill with the hammer very fast, and this is fair and balanced imho.
I really don't like tuned servers but if you change it, please make them options to tune (like hammer_reload_time and hook_grab_time).
Thanks for hearing me.
ok, magnet's one is the real 'big post'.
Magnet, I disagree, I think 1.5 sec (please not less) should be fine. Right now the hook is a bit abused. With a lower time, the hook would still be a powerful thing, but it will require more skill. You will have to kill or rehook the guy faster.
About the other modifications, I think that the laser should have a bigger reload time. I agree for the hammer modification. But, the grenade modification is a bit useless, and the shotgun is already powerfull, please don't change it.
Magnet, I disagree, I think 1.5 sec (please not less) should be fine. Right now the hook is a bit abused. With a lower time, the hook would still be a powerful thing, but it will require more skill. You will have to kill or rehook the guy faster.
About the other modifications, I think that the laser should have a bigger reload time. I agree for the hammer modification. But, the grenade modification is a bit useless, and the shotgun is already powerfull, please don't change it.
Yes 1.5 would be ok (that's my timing for rehooks) but 1s is really too short, no time to do anything. That's what matricks said was likely so I replied to that.
I don't think the laser reload time should increased, it's the highest of reload times already. And the hammer reload is bad, maybe matricks' new idea about variable reload after successful hit is better but most of the time, you double hammer hits (or you do little damage). Everyone knows hammer is powerful but that's the unique melee weapon (along with katana which sucks even more) so it shouldn't be changed too much.
Regarding the hammer, I don't want to make it weaker, I just want to remove that it's exploitable. As I said, the worst case scenario is that you spew out 100dmg over 1 second. This is the possibility that I want to remove. I think I will go with a reload time only when you hit someone. This would remove the possibility of exploiting it.
Regarding the hammer, I don't want to make it weaker, I just want to remove that it's exploitable. As I said, the worst case scenario is that you spew out 100dmg over 1 second. This is the possibility that I want to remove. I think I will go with a reload time only when you hit someone. This would remove the possibility of exploiting it.
Alright then, but will you "feel" a reload time like with the shotgun or will it be just like right now, only with silent systems that prevent it from being exploited? Because I saw some hammer kills during the ESL finals and they all seemed to me legit. The outcome of a hammer rush is so unpredictable that there should be a reward for the risk: I hope the weapon feeling doesn't change too much.
As for the hook, I think 1.5 or 1.6s would be a sweet spot and lowering the traction a bit would be nice (if you hook someone with speed, you should be carried away a bit, TW doesn't do this much right now).
I had other solutions in mind to the hooking problem; one was that damaging the hooking tee with a grenade (direct hit) or the hammer would make him force to release his hook before the 2s, and keep the 2s in general. That would be fun. The new behavior will still allow rehooking because we can time when the hook will be released (that's a good thing that shouldn't be prevented by game mechanics, because it's in those conditions that skilled players differentiate themselves). But if your hook was canceled by hammer or grenade, then you would have to react to an external event rather than just timing it right. It would make it a lot more difficult and fun.
matricks wrote:Regarding the hammer, I don't want to make it weaker, I just want to remove that it's exploitable. As I said, the worst case scenario is that you spew out 100dmg over 1 second. This is the possibility that I want to remove. I think I will go with a reload time only when you hit someone. This would remove the possibility of exploiting it.
Alright then, but will you "feel" a reload time like with the shotgun or will it be just like right now, only with silent systems that prevent it from being exploited? Because I saw some hammer kills during the ESL finals and they all seemed to me legit. The outcome of a hammer rush is so unpredictable that there should be a reward for the risk: I hope the weapon feeling doesn't change too much.
teeworlds != lottery. you shouldnt rush with hammer and think you have 50/50 to kill/die. its really lame when you got 15 hp and some guy rushes you and get 4 hammerhits in 0.5s because of luck or "exploits".
teeworlds != lottery. you shouldnt rush with hammer and think you have 50/50 to kill/die. its really lame when you got 15 hp and some guy rushes you and get 4 hammerhits in 0.5s because of luck or "exploits".
It's not solely luck, you have to move in an unpredictable manner, choose the right place, etc. So that's just as valid as any other tactic, and your opponent can use the hammer when you are close enough to hit him. The lottery is to know which hammer will hit first.
Exploits are another matter and are irrelevant to my point. Obviously I wish for the game to be unexploitable.
If you have 15 hps and weapons you are very likely to kill the hammer guy from a distance anyway, if you don't go into a confined area.
I also play on the cKz clan server and usually do pretty well (there are a few guys who sometimes gets a higher score, not that score means so much in ctf) and I still don't see the criticism. Getting hooked is nothing but annoying for me, and only feels exploitable when used against others, if you really wanna take down the flag, learn to use the laser or team up and enclose him/her from different directions. I might be off here as I haven't played any clan vs clan games but these last days I've really noticed how hooking and instant-death hammering feels like the number one sources of annoyance in the game and I would really be glad to see it go x).
Magnet: Having had a long separation depression from 0.3 (ok not that serious), yea, there will be many beautiful things that will go away, that's sort of the nature of updates, but there have always been many new beautiful things in the game once you've had some time with it .
I'm in for all changes (as you probably would have guessed -__-;).
Getting hooked is nothing but annoying for me, and only feels exploitable when used against others, if you really wanna take down the flag, learn to use the laser or team up and enclose him/her from different directions. I might be off here as I haven't played any clan vs clan games but these last days I've really noticed how hooking and instant-death hammering feels like the number one sources of annoyance in the game and I would really be glad to see it go x).
You are saying that because you don't know how to do the same and/or 'cause you can't survive from a hook.
Well, you have to learn... As you learned everything in Teeworlds.
edit: And I'm not saying that I know. Sometimes I die to hookers too.
Hello Matricks,
To be honest, I don't like the changes either.
Hammer: it's powerful, but you just can't use it against a skilled player who has a weapon. I've never seen a pro fighting an armed pro with just an hammer. Shouldn't be changed, it's the only way out when you have no weapon at hand (that happens often in crowded games)
Shotgun: the shotgun *is* powerful already. It's already used in mid-close combat and is just as powerful as rocket. No need to change.
Rocket: 5% increase of radius won't change much. I've no problem with that.
Hook: this is the change that scares me the most. Hook is what make tw special. Getting hooked is going to get you in trouble, but that's the need that makes you train your speed. And by the way, when you get hooked you're still able to counter-attack, so the one who dies (if any) is not always the prey.
While I trust your game balancing skills, I'd suggest to watch some more ctf - if you haven't recently - before deciding. There are some nice games happening on fp8 - CTF2
Toltally agree!
Hook is the TeeWorlds mark
Thx
. Ally of cKz`
Hammer: it's powerful, but you just can't use it against a skilled player who has a weapon. I've never seen a pro fighting an armed pro with just an hammer.
I've seen and done that myself many times.
what can i say? everything was already said-you are the best!!!
I'm agree with Magnet ... 1 sec is REALLY TOO SHORT ! Please let at least 1.5 sec ... hooking is just the best tactic on TW, without that the game become a lot less interesting I think 
Guys... your are talking about things you never tested before. You think of things that could happen and may possibly if maybe in case of........
These are things that have to be tested. How can you tell 1sec hooking is to short if you never tested it?
Yeah sure, the "gameplay may change". SO what?
This is not even a beta status game. everything can and should happen here. This means everything sould be tested. it can be changed back.
Developing a game is not following a conservative path.
It´s the way of beeing "inspired by fertile imagination". You won´t be inspired if you think conservative.
So please, accept a change. Test it. And then comment. The other way around is just ignorant.
Guys... your are talking about things you never tested before. You think of things that could happen and may possibly if maybe in case of........
These are things that have to be tested. How can you tell 1sec hooking is to short if you never tested it?
Yeah sure, the "gameplay may change". SO what?
This is not even a beta status game. everything can and should happen here. This means everything sould be tested. it can be changed back.Developing a game is not following a conservative path.
It´s the way of beeing "inspired by fertile imagination". You won´t be inspired if you think conservative.So please, accept a change. Test it. And then comment. The other way around is just ignorant.
There's a good point.
Also, listening to the intended audience is of course of uttermost importance, but listening too much and there's always the risk of no progress at all.
Can hook time be modified in the current version's server tuning? That would give the pros a chance to test it and comment. My feeling is that anything lower than 2 secs would even out everything too much and make the pro games overall less interesting. Also as already mentioned, it will enable some players to escape forever.
The coolest 1 on 1 scenes have been where I have no ammo left and the opponent uses hook/hammer, but I got away by counter hooking walls and buzz off in the right second. Lowering hook time would make this much too easy.
Maybe enable 0.5.0 server hook time to be customized? Maybe fp8 will tune their servers to "classic mode"
Thanks for listening, this IS a great game!
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