101 Reply by Pathos

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Re: The Great Vanilla Revival Initiative: Discussion

What Baklava and Yem have said are absolutely right. We need updates. There is a very strong correlation between frequency of updates and the Google trends chart. The evidence irrefutable looking at the posts of the News and Developer Journals sub-forums (see "x.y.z released" threads' post dates). The older versions tend to have much more frequent posts about updates (few days apart), whereas the newer version are spread apart by years.

The Google Trends shows that it's the last trimester of 2011 for the excruciating downward trend. Let's look at some of the threads since then. Here are the threads from July 2011, release of 0.6.1:

https://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=8217
https://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=8265

Three years later, the latest version is still 0.6.2. Yet, all the reasons we're given repeatedly from mods/devs on why the updates aren't coming is because (on top of my head--I'm sure you can find all the threads in numerous places) the devs are busy or Teeworlds is pretty much a complete (or perfect) game. This is just next-level laziness and denial. Devs are busy? Expand the dev team. Teeworlds is nowhere near a perfect game with so many bugs, glitches, overwhelming amount of suggestions and complaints on forum, etc.

Surely enough, the devs can give up because there is an overwhelming amount to do on this game. As I've said before, the real solution is expanding the dev team.

As for vanilla, whether it is a success or not, the real question should be on the frequency of updates for Teeworlds. That means recruiting a bigger dev team. There is an overwhelming amount of suggestions, feedback, ideas, complaints, etc. on this forum alone, it overwhelms the few devs we have. I'd suggest talking to deen, the DDNet server-client coder, to be included into the official TW dev team.

In conclusion, vanilla revival is not what we should focus on. We should focus on getting (someone like) deen into the official TW dev team. Then, vanlila players will naturally flow in.

I felt obligated to post this thread from 2011: https://www.teeworlds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=7335

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102 Reply by BeaR

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Re: The Great Vanilla Revival Initiative: Discussion

Pathos wrote:

Teeworlds is nowhere near a perfect game with so many bugs, glitches, overwhelming amount of suggestions and complaints on forum, etc.

Surely enough, the devs can give up because there is an overwhelming amount to do on this game. As I've said before, the real solution is expanding the dev team.

So many bugs and glitches? huh? Maybe 2-3 things need to get fixed imho.
And about the amount of stuff to do: Highly depends on what you want teeworlds to be. For me the current state is ok, well some features could be added but nothing which I feel a need for.

103 Reply by Dune

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Re: The Great Vanilla Revival Initiative: Discussion

About the update, there is a big 0.7 version that is already done, but it's a bit unclear what sort of polishing it requires before being released. I guess we would need magnet's opinion on this, but he tends to only be active from time to time.

Not Luck, Just Magic.

104 Reply by Magnet

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Re: The Great Vanilla Revival Initiative: Discussion

0.7 has work going on by Oy for the input & graphical handling. It's buggy as it is and cannot be released. It also features no gameplay changes. There is no problem with expanding the dev team, there's a problem with sharing a vision and keeping Teeworlds true to its principles in a way that meets its criteria for playing from low to high levels.

Obviously a new release brings activity, simply because it triggers a bunch of news on different gamesites across the web (TW-related ones, game related-ones, linux gaming, etc) and thus it generates interest to people who don't know the game, and can make some old players come back for some time.

There are plans for a 0.7, but Oy's busy elsewhere and he was assigned the technical leadership by matricks. I'm not convinced a community led initiative will bear better results in terms of quality. I got some people around to agree with a plan, but everyone has commitments elsewhere.

If there are people who are willing to dedicate enough time to roll-up a 0.7, I can invite them to our dev group so that they can discuss our plans in terms of features/gameplay. I think it would be nice to keep a little bit of surprise for what's coming next, in terms of gameplay additions & maps. What's sure for now is that the current gameplay is almost complete for me, and I think what the game needs more is more variety in the official game mods, and more in-game help to play appropriate games (in terms of skill level, free time, etc).

105 Reply by wappsify

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Re: The Great Vanilla Revival Initiative: Discussion

I think you are absolutely on point with your thoughts about teeworlds being pretty much complete at this point in time - also the need of more variety did come to my mind before.

I've been a semi-active member of this community for some time now, although never competitive, so most of you probably don't recognize me - but that's not my point anyways. What I wanted to say is, that there are still people like me out there, anxiously waiting for a new version, even though there really isn't much to add anymore - and we know that. But there's so many good memories here, that we can't just leave this game behind. And even though nowadays I have way less time to spend on vidya, let alone browsing forums about them, I still come here once in a while, hoping for an update.
Anyways, I just wanted to express how I feel and want to thank you guys for the fun times that were had with the game you created.

Take your time with the update - there's no need to rush it. Teeworlds' golden times may be over, but I'm sure some of us will stay for a while longer.

burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.

106 Reply by Pathos

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Re: The Great Vanilla Revival Initiative: Discussion

Teeworlds is far from complete. I'm not sure how you're silencing all the complaints and suggestions/feedback on this forum, but there are pages of threads on what can be improved (evidenced on few subforums). There is a pretty big to-be-changed list for the 0.7 and that's great and I'm sure we're all looking forward to it. Of course, this is after rejecting almost half of the suggestions that have been considered by the devs, some  off-put to be considered in the future patches (so essentially, much more than half, but that's not a bad thing; I'm just putting perspective into how much feedback is available on the forum). Further, the fact that we have so many different clients (including bot clients) shows the inadequacy of the official version. Apparently, there's a client in the works to combine all the clients' features combined. That's fine and all, until we consider the delay of the mega-client after 3 years of official version patch.

Surely enough, expanding the dev team to share a vision and working together is difficult. I also understand that the bigger the programming team, the more difficult the logistics. However, this reasoning gets thrown out of the window when TW is open source. Tying it to my previous point, this is the reason why there are so many clients. Further, I also wonder if those clients' devs considered contacting each other. I've briefly looked at Github for DDNet and they seem to have a pretty decent dev community going on. You can see the proof of this by looking at the update logs of DDNet--credits to different coders of new features/updates.

I see the graphics problem and I reported it (assuming it's the same problem); I'm glad it's being worked upon. What about the network problem? Perhaps I should post this on another thread.

Magnet, at least you now see the broader view of the problem--TW, not just vanilla. I'm not saying that vanilla can't use more players and I'm certainly not dismissing TW either, or even the proportion of players that dedicate to vanilla. As I've said before, this thread's focus is on vanilla, but we need a bigger span with handling the entirety of the scene. Hopefully, we'll see results soon.

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Set up TW server on Pi  :: Vanilla/TW+ server configs :: Vanilla maps

107 Reply by Landil

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Re: The Great Vanilla Revival Initiative: Discussion

I think vanilla teeworlds is nearly perfect, too. Sure, we need some more vanilla game modes to provide more variation, but imho the focus is supposed to be put on more balanced and perfectly mapped maps. More maps for the same amount of players enables them circle thru maps which improves game experience by variation.

Besides, graphical development has nearly stopped. I supported a couple of people who wanted to contribute a new tileset/theme for the next release, but none of them got the balls and discipline to finish them. I and some former gfx guys did some work on new themes, but they need the finishing touch.

Antoine de Saint Exupéry: It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Besides -  I am the gfx guy!

108 Reply by Slayer *gV* (edited by Slayer *gV* 2014-11-04 18:57:48)

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Re: The Great Vanilla Revival Initiative: Discussion

I would agree if you would say "vanilla teeworlds implementation is complete according to the KISS principle and considering our current dev team power". But it isn't perfect at all considering how many possibilities/functions are left.

From the point of view of an esport game there are so many functions missing. Just our two tournaments proved that organizing matches is very uncomfortable. Functions to support streamers are missing at all, just take a look at other very successful esport titles like Starcraft II, Dota 2 or LoL. Yes, they do not follow the KISS principle. But remember that KISS doesn't provide an easy to use program, it will just give you a program designed in the easiest possible manner. If you want to take Teeworlds to a higher level, you should consider leaving the KISS principle in some ways for the sake of a smooth and comfortable (or even professional) usage.

In my honest opinion this game is not up to date or "state of the art".

[MOD] Domination   ||   [MOD] iVampire   ||   [MOD] Streamer
[MAP] Slayer's maps (fly)

109 Reply by baus (edited by baus 2014-11-14 22:00:54)

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Re: The Great Vanilla Revival Initiative: Discussion

Slayer *gV* wrote:

In my honest opinion this game is not up to date or "state of the art".

Sorry, but what's going on here? All these discussions are beside the point.

Teeworlds not state of the art? Counterquestion: Does it have to be?

You don't necessarily have to improve any game mechanics. I'd have no problem playing TW with an older version. If you have the time, yes, feel free to make some improvements - I don't mind, actually it can even be great.  However, as I said: This community - especially the people in power - have to set priorities: Find ways to advertise TW in a better way. And if Steam is the only possibility you can think of, then it has to be Steam.

(Btw: Since there is another topic about a singlemode of TW --> Developing some kind of offshoot to put it on browsergame-websites like the german jetztspielen.de could also be worthwhile)

Putting technicalities in the context of the massive player loss of TW is just misleading and wrong. TW has a simple game principle, that's kinda like it's essence. Also, people start playing games, people stop playing games. People increase their gaming game, people decrease their gaming time. That's just the ordinary run of things. You can't really influence that by modifying little things - TW is TW.

Changing anything about TW wouldn't make me, neither anyone else I know from TW, become more active again all of a sudden.

"Baklava" has already posted this impressing google-statistic. (Even though the player loss due to a lack of advertisement and therefore also a lack of interest by potential new players should be clear without such things.)
What else do you need to finally focus on the importance of finding new ways of advertisement for TW?

PS: If any not-germans ask themselves what kind of advertisement there has been in earlier days: The german tv-station "Giga" - a gaming channel - was closed a few years ago. They played Teeworlds in public german tv and nearly all of the german tw-players I know came to play TW because they or their friends had seen it on tv. However, I don't know why I also see less french and russian people playing TW - but maybe that's just because the lack of new german players has created a vicious circle making tw more and more unappealing due to player loss.


Anyway, I post again because I have played TW yesterday again after a longer time and it was soo much fun. It would be such a shame if this sad development continues...

Therefore I plead: Do something to promote TW, make it big again.



Edit: Also-->

Landil wrote:

imho the focus is supposed to be put on more balanced and perfectly mapped maps. More maps for the same amount of players enables them circle thru maps which improves game experience by variation.

Just speaking for insta now: You can build as many maps as you want. By now insta has become a one-map-mod (ctf4). It's impossible to find public games on other maps. Back in the days when there were still a bunch of players it was no problem finding public games on different maps/people who were open-minded to try out different maps.

---> TW needs more players.